Put dates on slab inserts !!!

[Sunnywood]

Why don't the services include a date of encapsulation on the insert? Is there any reason NOT to do this? It would really help evaluate the certification history of a coin.

 

Sunnywood

 

[Beijim]

This is a good question, and one that relates to previous threads regarding NGC's new ten year copper guarantee. The basic question in those threads (as I recall) was: given that I have (or am contemplating purchasing) a copper coin in an NGC holder, how can I tell when the guarantee expires?

 

I believe that question would be answered were the grading date to be on the label.

 

Regards,

Beijim

 

[truthteller]

Excellent idea, I concur 100%

 

TRUTH

[Android]

Sunnywood, That would be GREAT question for the "Ask NGC forum". I'd certainly like to know the answer to that as well! Dena was mentioning that NGC is going to provide us with a coin "lookup" function - similar to the PCGS site. If they can't put it on the holder, perhaps they could include the slabs "birthday" when looking up the coin?

 

Andy

[DonHeath]

Sunnywood,

 

EVP and I posed that question once in this thread. I think it would be enough for the date to be displayed when you typed in the cert#. I believe the info would be helpful.

[Sunnywood]

Yes, I recall that ... and I disagreed with David Lange's response that there is no advantage to knowing the date of encapsulation. However, he didn't answer the question posed here: Is there any reason NOT to put the dates on the inserts? I can't see any such reason from the collector's point of view !!! Of course dealers & crackout guys wouldn't like it, because it would expose how recently the coin was certified ... and by deduction, one would begin to see the turth about how frequently some coins get submitted. The services love multiple resubmissions, so perhaps they think it is in their favor to assist the submitters by hiding the date of certification. Whatever !! I just think it is vital information, and should be on the insert; and there is no good reason not to put it there !!

 

Sunnywood

 

[braddick]

Now that NGC is offering a ten year copper guarantee this would be a way for them to date the encapsulation (of copper and all coins) and 'save face' as to why they hadn't done this earlier.

[Tradedollarnut]

I think the date is easily manipulated and therefore almost worthless. All you have to do is send a coin in for reholder to get it a new date.

[Wihlborg]

Sunnywood,

 

I don't really see how the date of encapsulation being on the label is helpful because I can’t think of a valid reason that I would or would not buy a coin based on the date it was encapsulated. If the coin was nice I would buy it, if not I wouldn’t regardless of the date it was encapsulated.

 

This includes copper coins covered under NGC’s ten-year guarantee. For example, let’s say that NGC did have the date of encapsulation on it’s labels and I found a nice copper coin in a NGC holder but the ten year guarantee was about to or was already expired. Is there any valid reason for me to believe that as soon as I buy that coin it would magically deteriorate before my eyes? I think I would happily take my chances that if after ten years it still looked nice enough for me to want to buy it the coin was pretty stable.

 

I agree with DonHeath though, that once NGC has an online system for verifying the certification numbers this should be added to the online info provided. This could be done very easily and would make the info available to those who feel it is needed for whatever reason.

 

John

 

[Hoot]

As far as an online verification system goes, it would also be nice if such a system were retrospective in the sense that it would track numbers through regrades, reholdering, crossovers, etc. I know this would be far from perfect for tracking the history of a coin, but it would be interesting for those where the chain of custody was unbroken.

 

Hoot

[BankNote1]

Without some knid of dating system how will anyone know if the cent has one year or ten left on the guarantee. When they reholder a coin they should use the old number on the slab.

[Wihlborg]

Good point Monty.

 

They could probably do one of two things; either keep the old cert. Number when a coin is reholdered or just carry over the remaining amount of time left under the guarantee to the new cert. number. Of the two I would think NGC would want to go with carrying over the remaining amount of time.

 

One other note about the copper guarantee. Even though I do not see a valid reason to have the encapsulation date on the label, I do believe this info should be made available online or else how would anyone who does own a coin that develops a problem be able to tell if it still falls under the guarantee? I guess they could call NGC, but if they have a problem and NGC rightfully informs them the guarantee has expired I could see how this may cause a problem if the owner of the coin does not believe NGC. I just think it would help prevent a lot of problems if the info were available online before hand.

 

John

 

[Sunnywood]

TDN,

 

Reholder certainly would not trigger a new date ... it doesn't even trigger a new cert #.

 

Besdies, the greater value would probably be perceived in older inserts ... I can't see anyone wanting to put a new date on a coin ... a freshly dated insert means either fresh material (which usually everyone knows is really fresh if it came from somewhere reputable), or a coin that has been resubmitted, cracked out, conserved, blah blah blah. So why would anyone want to deliverately put a fresh date on?

 

Just like the grade, which can in various cases be interpreted as anything from the prime determinant of market value to a meaningless designation on the insert, the date should be there for informational purposes, to be interpreted in accordance with known information. For example, if a coin is purchased two months after it appeared in a major auction, it is useful information to see that it was regraded last week.

 

Grades can be manipulatd too, so can surfaces, toning, pricing, descriptions, etc. That doesn't mean the buyer should be deprived of all information. If we omitted all aspects of the coin business that are subject to manipulation, there would be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LEFT !!!!!

 

Sunnywood

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Reholder certainly would not trigger a new date ... it doesn't even trigger a new cert #.

 

My bad - but grade review for an upgrade would. Guaranteed not to go down............

[mark]

Wihlborg:

 

Though not applying to copper coins, with silver coins I am very interested in the date the coin was slabbed. I prefer "white" coins and I am aware of the fact that probably 99% of bright white coins have been dipped. I would like to know how long ago the dip was performed so that I can determine the likelihood whether there is any dip residue left by improper rinsing because dip residue can cause a coin to "turn." For instance, if the coin was slabbed 5 years ago and hasn't turned in the holder, I presume it won't turn. But if the coin was slabbed 5 days ago, there remains a chance that the coin will turn in the future because of improper rinsing. So in this case I think that knowing when the coin was slabbed is a major advantage.

 

For copper coins I guess that the advantage of knowing the date isn't as great because dipped copper often already looks funny. But, with NGC's limited copper guarantee, I suppose knowing the date of encapsulation is important. However, with PCGS's unlimited copper guarantee, I presume knowing the date is much less important.

 

Mark

[BankNote1]

You guys IMO, have very good points. There should be someway to get the Info. I don't guess it matters how.

[nwcs]

Considering the track records of how the companies manage population reports (which, arguably, is more important than a date on a slab), I don't think there is much benefit to having the date of encapsulation on the coin holder. I'd rather see the big companies get together to solve the population inflation between their services -- a result of the crossover game.

[rgv]

It would be helpful to know if a coin was graded before certain designations were added. If I was buying a roosie without the FT designation, I would like to know if it was graded before April 14, 2003.

Not only should you be able to know when a coin was graded, but also when designations were added (Cam/Ultracam for pre 1950 proofs, FBL for Franklins, * for all coins)

[Wihlborg]

Hi Mark,

 

I also like blast white silver coins and am very aware that a large percentage of white coins have been dipped at some point. I am also aware that a bad dip job can cause problems at some time in the future long after the coin was originally dipped, but to be honest I have never had this happen to me personally.

 

I don’t have a problem with the encapsulation date being on the label, but I just don’t feel it is really necessary because of the following. Let’s assume that NGC did have the date on the label and you were at a coin show and found a very nice example of an issue that you were looking for but the date said that it was encapsulated only a few week or months ago. Would you not buy the coin because you were worried that it MAY turn at some time in the future? How do you know that just because it was encapsulated only a few weeks ago that it was dipped at that time? It may have been dipped years ago or it could have even never been dipped.

 

There is no way to tell if or when a coin was dipped or even if it has ever been dipped so I don’t see this as being info that I would use when making a decision on whether or not to buy a coin. If every time I saw a nice white coin I worried about if it was recently dipped incorrectly I would have a lot less really nice coins in my collection!

 

John

 

[Wihlborg]

Nwcs,

 

I'd rather see the big companies get together to solve the population inflation between their services -- a result of the crossover game.

 

I agree completely. I feel that if this issue was resolved it would be shocking as to the real population of some coins.

 

John

 

[Tradedollarnut]

For some reason, even in famous cases brought to their attention, neither PCGS nor NGC will correct it without a tag. I contacted NGC about the PF67 1884 trade dollar listed on the pop report. A few years back it was crossed into a PCGS holder and there it remains. But they won't correct the pop report without the tag. What're they afraid of, it showing up and having a -1 pop???

 

I also recently contacted them about three coins I know of in a collection certified by NGC. One is a pop 0 (!!) and the other two were regraded higher but didn't have the under pop removed.

 

Granted that many of these instances are due to tags not being properly turned in, but when shown the error, logically they should correct it.

[dragon]

IMO, the main reason the services will not put dates on their holders is because they don't want their holders trading in the marketplace by when they were graded. They want to maintain that all their slabs are/were created equal. Of course, everyone already knows this is not the case, but the services do not want to create a multi tiered pricing scenario depending on dates.

 

dragon

[Beijim]

IMO, the main reason the services will not put dates on their holders is because they don't want their holders trading in the marketplace by when they were graded.

 

Of all the possible reasons against stamping the holder inserts with the grading date, this is the most compelling I've read. Frankly, this motivation escaped me and seems a not wholly unreasonable counter argument.

 

Beijim

 

[Sunnywood]

The notion that the grading services don't want to give the appearance of fluctuating grading standards is valid. However, it is ridiculous to claim that grading standards have never varied. So I think that argument actually cuts the other way.

 

In order to make slabs more fungible and marketable, it would be best if the slab contained as much information as possible to yield a determination of true market value. THAT is the whole point of grading & certification. That's why we talk about CAM, RED, "Star" designations, and of course grade points. If different dates do indeed carry different grading standards, putting the date on the insert allows the market to decide that, and then compensate & equilibrate. I'd rather have that, than have a bunch of MS64's from different time periods that are all graded differently but presumptively and incorrectly valued the same !!

 

To all the folks who say they don't care about the date & don't care if it's on the insert, I say "Great, then you won't mind if I ask for it, since you'll ignore it anyway!!!" To me, more information is always better than less information. And the date, for whatever it's worth, no matter what it means or doesn't mean, would be an accurate piece of information ... per haps more accurate than the grade itself !!

 

What astounds me is just how much generic "product" gets turned over 1000 times, cracked out, dipped, resubmitted, blah blah blah. People have no idea !!! But just look at the slab numbers on coins in dealer inventories ... so many of the PCGS slabs are the newer numbers, and so many of the white coins in NGC slabs are new numbers (undoubtedly post-NCS). I think collectors should understand this. There is a huge amount of coins being recycled, processed and "made" all the time. Dating the inserts helps one to understand the bigger picture.

 

Sunnywood

 

[Doxtader-migration]

Date a holder, what a marvalous idea.

[mark]

John:

 

I agree totally with you that dating a holder doesn't solve all the problem of improperly diped coins. Personally, I have had 1 coin turn bad on me and think I might have another heading south. But, just as you, I wouldn't let the date of encapsulation be the determining factor in many purchases.

 

You have an example where I find 1 coin I need that has been recently slabbed by NGC. You are correct, I (and you!) am likely to buy that coin regardless of when it was slabbed.

 

But let me posit another example: Suppose you find a 2 PCGS slabbed examples of a coin you need. The coins are otherwise identical, save for the fact that one was slabbed last month and the other was slabbed 5 years ago. The price is the same and, to repeat, the coins are identical. In this case, which coin would you buy? Personally, I'd take the coin that was slabbed 5 years ago because I have NO concern that the coin would turn. Or, suppose you find 2 PCGS (BIG ) slabbed coins you need--different dates or different types, whatever. You want both equally. Once again the coins are the same price and identical save for the fact that one was slabbed last month and the other was slabbed 5 years ago. You can buy only 1 coin: Which do you buy? Again, I'll take the one slabbed 5 years ago.

 

Still, in most realistic circumstances I think your analysis is right on the money: The date of encapsulation is only a minor consideration.

 

Mark

 

P.S.: Glad to see someone else shares my preferences for "white" coins.

[dragon]

<<>>

 

 

EXACTLY!! And the services don't exactly want this brought to light and publicized for obvious credibility reasons.

 

dragon

 

[Wihlborg]

Mark,

 

You gave two very good examples, and I would have to agree that IF the circumstances were as you described I would also buy the coin that had been encapsulated longer.

 

Honestly, I really don't care too much if the date is on the holder or not. I just don’t think that the date of encapsulation being on the label would be useful in almost any circumstance. I certainly understand the reasons why someone may be interested in when a coin was encapsulated; I just do not believe that people would base buying decisions on it. Bottom line, I certainly would not begin boycotting NGC slabs if they started adding the date to the labels.

 

John

 

[Sunnywood]

It is really interesting and informative to see how people can have differing perspectives and opinions !! I for one think it is completely bizarre that anyone would NOT be interested in the date of certification. But, chacun a son gout, as the expression goes ("each according to his own taste").

 

Instead we whisper about PCGS green label inserts and "first generation" holders. Obviously some people do care about such things. An old label means that a coin has not been played with recently. It might mean that the coin was overgraded in the first place !! Or it might mean that it is overdue for resubmission and might upgrade. In order to know how to interpret the green label (or the date on the insert), one still has to LOOK AT THE COIN !!! Gee whiz, think of that. I'm one who always says, "Buy the coin not the holder;" "Don't pay premiums for plastic," "Collect coins not slabs," etc etc etc. But I still think the date should be on the insert !!!!!! And as a pedigree nut, I feel it would help trace an important coin's history in many instaces.

 

Sunnywood

 

[Wihlborg]

Hi Sunnywood,

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying that I would not be interested in knowing the date a coin was encapsulated. What I am saying is that I would not base my decision to buy a coin upon when it was encapsulated. I, like you believe in the old saying, "Buy the coin not the holder". Now if this is the case, how is the date being on the label relevant?

 

I am not ‘against’ the date being on the labels; I just don’t see its relevance unless someone would use this info to make buying decisions based upon it, and I don’t understand why anyone would do this because basically that would mean they were not “buying the coin” but rather “buying the oldest holder”.

 

I have a number of coins in old NGC and PCGS holders and am as curious about such things as anyone, that’s why I would like to see this info added to the system for verifying the certification numbers online once it becomes available.

 

Then if someone wanted to look up any coin’s date of encapsulation, all they would need to do is logon and type away. But as I said I would not care one way or the other if it were on the label.

 

John