Recent crossover success with PCGS

[Hoot]

We are sometimes curious as to the rates of crossover, so here's a fine example...

 

A while back, I submitted four Jefferson nickels graded by ANACS, each with "5 steps" (and each of them clearly bearing 5 steps with no bag marks, etc.) to PCGS for crossover. I submitted them in the economy tier and specified the grades to be no less than current. The results:

 

1938-D MS66 5 steps ---> did not cross

1938-S MS65 5 steps ---> did not cross

1964-D MS64 5 steps ---> did not cross

1968-S MS64 5 steps ---> did not cross

 

So, I decided to test the waters, so to speak, and I resubmitted them in the regular tier and specified that they cross at "any grade". What the hell. The results:

 

1938-D MS66 5 steps ---> MS66FS

1938-S MS65 5 steps ---> MS65FS

1964-D MS64 5 steps ---> MS64

1968-S MS64 5 steps ---> MS65

 

Now THATS consistency, eh?

 

A note: I have found over and over again that PCGS is highly inconsistent at applying the strike designation of FS to Jefferson nickels. I have many examples, but here's a good one... I recently submitted a killer 1939 Jeff with 6-5-5-6 steps that PCGS returned graded MS66. I did this under the economy tier. I cracked it and sent it back under the regular tier and it graded MS66FS, as it should. I have a fair number of FS Jeffs in PCGS holders that do not have the FS designation. I plan on keeping them. I do hope that some day NGC will start designating 5 and 6 step nickels with the step formula and consider them in their registries.

 

Hoot

[EVillageProwler]

Are you going to post this across the street?

 

 

EVP

 

[Hoot]

Is there an emoticon for hurling???

 

Hoot

[Peace_Fan]

Sounds like you should always submit under the regular tier... Maybe they have separate graders for the economy service..

[crito]

If PCGS doesn't get their 20% cut (as a premium for the "guarantee", of course), you can't get a decent grade out of them. They don't want collectors competing with their big dealer friends anyways. The "collectors club" is a sham. It's an "overpriced dealers club" over there.

 

[Hoot]

I've long had my suspicions about the economy service. The quality and consistency of grades that I receive from PCGS with that service has long been noticably different than the regular service. I just got back results from the economy service on a bunch of modern nickels. They all came back graded 1 point lower than I expected. I will crack most of them and send them back through their regular service. What a drag.

 

With NGC, the grades I expect are almost always dead on. I am virtually never disappointed and much more often pleasantly surprised. They are definitely my preferred service, I just wish they'd step up to the plate with Jefferson nickels. They'd end up with most of the submissions currently going to PCGS, ANACS, and SEGS. Talk about a demand-related service issue... And I'd say, do it in the vein of SEGS.

 

Hoot

[bigd5]

Gotta love ANACS heh Hoot? They do a decent job, much better than most give them credit for, especially lately.

They're not great, but they are better than adequate, and if you keep your eyes open, you can do well with purchasing coins in their slabs for discounted prices.

[TomB]

I have only sent in Jeffersons to PCGS one time for crossover service. An MS67 NGC went MS67 at PCGS and another MS67 NGC went MS67FS at PCGS. I definitely believe, in my relatively limited experience with Jeffersons, that PCGS is slightly looser in the FS designation.

 

I did have one maddening experience, however, with a crossover from an ANACS coin. The coin was a beautifully toned SLQ in an ANACS MS64FH holder that was bagged by PCGS twice for AT on crossover attempts. The coin was then sent to NGC for crossover and went MS65FH and the new owner then sent the coin to PCGS where it went MS66FH. I guess the toning looked more original in an NGC holder than in an ANACS holder in the eye of PCGS.

[gmarguli]

Are you going to post this across the street?

 

 

Come on now. This falls under the new policy of "No posts unless they are 100% supportive of PCG$" policy that has been instituted over there. It's like a giant cheerleader convention now.

 

As for coins being graded harder when they go in economy, weren't we told for a long time that the graders don't know the tier they are submitted under. Of course, we were told differently later on.....

[Android]

For those that are interested, HRH himself just said that economy submissions to PCGS will now be 75 calendar days. I think they're trying to steer people into using the regular service to boost the bottom line. Apparantly the regular service is still guaranteed at ten days?

 

Andy

[gmarguli]

75 days!? What happened to his line of BS about getting it down to 30 days within a few months?

 

PCG$ cannot be that swamped. Something is going on over there - some sort of game or shake-up that hasn't been announced. A so-called 50% increase in business makes turnaround times double to triple? I don't think so.

 

BTW, for anyone interested, the turnaround time at NGC for economy was 35 calender days as of today.

[PQSeated]

Whoa!!!! 75 days?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

I guess I'm never sending them a coin ever again.

[Hoot]

The last submission to PCGS (listed above) took 67 calendar days from the time they received it to the time they posted my grades, and it was under their regular tier.

 

Hoot

[BankNote1]

Guys 75 days isn't so bad! You just need to drink your Kool-Aid!

[gmarguli]

The problem is that when you factor in the shipping time and the fact that the coins need to be resubmitted 6 times until you get the accurate grade, PCG$ has already had your coins for 18 months.

[BankNote1]

You might as well let PCGS just keep them!

[Android]

HRH says they are desperately looking for "qualified graders" to help out as they don't want to use "apprentices" to grade our coins. I just don't understand what is going on over there. I'm just thankful that I don't submit to them.

 

Andy

[Android]

You might as well let PCGS just keep them!

 

Actually, a few people have mentioned that they are just going to call PCGS and ask for their coins to be returned ungraded. Someone asked HRH about this and he said that this was an option.

 

Andy

[DonHeath]

Interesting post Hoot, and thank you. Anything I submit to PCGS in the future will be a regular tier submission, but to be honest I doubt it'll be much. I don't care much about which holder my coins are in anymore except to add that NGCs AT holder is a plus, and I like their CS and turn-around times. I think a nice coin is a nice coin, and I become increasingly confident that the market is maturing, and can see a nice coin regardless of the holder. Greg observed in another thread that there was more price parity than ever in the Ike series, and I see PQ coins bringing PQ money in all series regardless of the holder (NGC/PCGS/ANACS). All of the major services do a pretty good job of detecting problem coins, and all offer some financial guarantee for the buyer of a problem coin. A coin in a reputable slab is worth a premium because of this protection, but more and more frequently, collectors are looking at the coins in the holder and making their own grading and pricing comparisons. A great example is the market pricing for toners.

 

I posted a simple question once across the street about the NGC -> PCGS crossover rate that seems to defy market logic. PCGS crosses approximately 25% of the NGC coins submitted. That would mean that in their opinion, 3 out of 4 NGC coins are overgraded. If NGC would give me 3 overgrades for every 4 coins I submit, I could make a fortune submitting only to NGC, since an NGC MS66 anything is worth more than a PCGS MS65 anything in today's market.

 

I go weary with the idea of someone elses political/marketing agenda being imposed unfairly on my paid submissions. As a customer, I would think my interests should come first. NGC seems far more amenable of this, so I will entrust them with the coins of mine that need a holder, and trust the market to set the correct price when I sell. A nice coin is a nice coin.

[Hoot]

If NGC would give me 3 overgrades for every 4 coins I submit, I could make a fortune submitting only to NGC, since an NGC MS66 anything is worth more than a PCGS MS65 anything in today's market.

 

PRECISELY why the claims (by whomever) to PCGS's superiority in grading and market value is utter baloney.

 

I share Greg's frustrations about having to submit a coin repeatedly to get the correct grade and/or designation. The 1964-D and 1968-S will make their way back to PCGS eventually to get the step designations they deserve. Where's NGC when you need them to begin providing a great service to the collector community: 5 and 6 step formulas (by quarter) on said Jefferson nickels?

 

Hoot

[jtryka]

I heard a rumor, that is completely unsubstantiated that the "whiz kid" grader they hired last year has left the company. From what I understand he was mainly grading moderns. Has anyone else heard this?

[crito]

The "kid" was doing a pretty good job with those moderns too. Now it's $12 to get a Statehood quarter graded, and that's with my "gold club" member discount Personally, I refuse to pay more than 10% of a coins value for grading and don't have many $120 Statehood quarters (and even if I find a MS68 in a roll, they'll undergrade it because I didn't pay the $30), so there's really no reason for me to submit any to PCGS... or renew my "suckers club" membership.

 

On the plus side, I hear PCGS is slabbing lots of "questionable" toned coins again, so everyone who got them upgraded at NGC can now waste money trying to cross them back hehe

 

Whatta racket.

 

[coinman1794]

We all need to put in our two cents worth in the marketplace to promote the ever increasing excellence of NGC! Although, one would hape that people will catch on when they see the coins.

 

It's a shame that NGC coins trade for less because of the holder, especially when PC*S has become so corrupt. NGC is very strict, very tough, and very fair. For instance, they are excellent on state quarters. PC*S has changed all of their grading standards many times, and state quarters are no acception. They have become so tight that former PC*S MS68's would grade MS66-67 today, and 67's would grade 64-65. On the other hand, I can look at a coin and say, that's an MS68, and send it to NGC and it will most likely come back as a 68! And NGC's new AT holder has helped in keeping the coins from toning yellow. I much prefere NGC state quarers to PC*S, and I hope this trend grows over time! Of course I much prefere all of NGC's grading to that of PC*S anymore. I am just using state quarters as one example. And, you can't beat having the safest holder, and lower prices, and faster turnaround, and much better consistency, a legitimate appearance review service, uncensored forums, etc, etc!

[jtryka]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the NGC "AT" holder?

[DonHeath]

AT - airtight

[Oldtrader3]

Air-tite.

[gmarguli]

The "kid" was doing a pretty good job with those moderns too.

 

Honestly, I thought he/they did a lousy job. I think that PCG$ was just handing out the PR69 grade without looking at the coins. Ten years ago it used to be that you had to look hard to find coins that would meet the PR69 grade. Today you can send any junk to PCG$ and they will grade it PR69.

 

The opposite is true for MS coins. They've become so tight that it's not worth sending coins to them anymore. It's insane to have to resubmit a coin multiple times to get a fair grade. I'm not an ATM card for PCG$.

 

[gmarguli]

It's a shame that NGC coins trade for less because of the holder, especially when PC*S has become so corrupt.

 

It's not completely true. Send an MS65 coin to NGC and they slab it as MS65. Sent that same coin to PCG$ and it grades MS64, then bodybagged for PVC, then AU58, then bodybagged for AT, then MS64. Finally the submitters give up and sell the coin in the MS64 slab. The coin realizes super PQ (near MS65) money and all the Kool-Aid drinkers point to the fact that a PCGS MS64 trades for almost the same price as an NGC MS65. To them that is proof that NGC overgrades.

 

PCG$ is corrupt. They play political games. They lie. Their president consider Joel Rettew his mentor. That's got to say something.

 

As for the air-tight NGC slab, that’s one of the reasons I've been slowly moving some of my coins to them. I like knowing that the chances of the toning changing isn't high.

 

[BankNote1]

Is there anyway to tell which NGC holders are the air-tite ones? I have about 5 different type NGC holders.

[coinman1794]

The new holde that has Numismatic Guarantee Corperation written on the label is the airtight holder.

 

Believe me, I know PC*S is corrupt. I have had many bad experiences with them! One of the points I was trying to make is that NGC isn't, in my opinion. And NGC should get more respect for grading right, while PC*S is grading wrong, whether too high or too low.