TE USAF Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 My Dad left me several coins and notes that he collected. I have question if this Morgan has been cleaned? I am not a coin collector and know vary little about the subject. this Morgan is 127 years old and looks to shiny to me to be that old. I know that a cleaned coin if worth less then one that was not cleaned. I will try to post clear photos. If more or different angle is needed let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 (edited) Cleaning can be difficult to discern at times from only static photos. Often you have to turn (rotate) the coin to see how the light moves across the surfaces to spot a lite cleaning or wipe. Drastic or harsh cleaning can usually be seen easier, the area under the chin on the obv looks a bit off but that could just be how the lighting is hitting that area. Nothing else is jumping out at me right off or screaming cleaned. How you spot a cleaned coin is to look for patches of fine parallel hairlines as you rotate the coin. These lines should be incuse on the surface, visualize running a piece of sandpaper over a piece of wood and the lines that can be seen on the wood, that is what you don't want to see on the surface of a coin. Morgan dollars saw little circulation for the most part thus there are tons of them that look like they were minted yesterday, so how bright or lustrous a coin appears is not an immediate indication of having been cleaned. Edited October 12 by Coinbuf RonnieR131 and ldhair 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TE USAF Posted October 12 Author Share Posted October 12 Coinbuf, That you for your thoughts. I was told if I could see a Cartwheel that it was not cleaned. Then I have read that a Cartwheel can still be there after a cleaning! It seems the more I read the more I am lost :). I don't even want to get into how to guess the grade of a coin after reading many articles on that subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 On 10/12/2024 at 11:51 AM, TE USAF said: Coinbuf, That you for your thoughts. I was told if I could see a Cartwheel that it was not cleaned. Then I have read that a Cartwheel can still be there after a cleaning! It seems the more I read the more I am lost :). I don't even want to get into how to guess the grade of a coin after reading many articles on that subject. Both statements are true, but it is necessary to remember that this applies to uncirculated or almost uncirculated coins. Coins that have been used in circulation will show wear and pick up marks that will interrupt the cartwheel but may not have come from cleaning. Your coin appears to have seen some minor circulation so you might not see a full unbroken cartwheel. Yes learning to grade coins takes a lot of time and you have to see lots of coins in various states of preservation to understand the differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 The reason for your confusion is that there are many different forms of "cleaning" that result in varying appearances. Significant hairlining is the result of abrasive "cleaning" from rubbing or scrubbing a coin with a cloth or other object but not of the various forms of chemical "cleaning", which may result in surfaces that are blotchy, glossy, pebbly, unnaturally "shiny" or of an unnatural dullness or color. To make matters even more ambiguous, a certain level of hairlines are expected on heavier coins such as Morgan dollars, and such light hairlining may result in a lower mint state grade instead of a "details" grade due to "cleaning". The "dipping" of coins in anti-tarnish solutions if not done excessively is also not regarded as "cleaning", and the resulting impaired luster (less "cartwheel") will also cause a reduction in numerical grade instead of a "cleaned" "details" designation. It is not possible for me to give a sound opinion on whether the 1897 Morgan dollar you posted has been "cleaned" based on these or perhaps any photos. This determination often requires in-person examination. Based on what I can see, it appears that the coin has been lightly circulated, with high point "rub" and that the luster is impaired, perhaps due to "dipping". My best guess is that the coin would "straight" grade Choice About Uncirculated (AU 55-58). The 1897 is a common date and would be worth about $45-$50 retail in this condition if "uncleaned" and not much less ($35 or so) if "cleaned". If you are interested, I have an NGC "custom" registry set that attempts to show what coins look like with various forms of "cleaning". See Characteristics of "Cleaned" Coins - Custom Set (collectors-society.com) RonnieR131 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 The overriding question, should someone dare to utter it is, whether the coin, as is, is worth the aggregate costs of authentication, formal grading certification and encapsulation. I am going to lie in the cut here, very quietly, and see what happens... Carry on, gentlemen of the numismatic persuasion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob’s Coins Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 On 10/12/2024 at 5:46 PM, Henri Charriere said: The overriding question, should someone dare to utter it is, whether the coin, as is, is worth the aggregate costs of authentication, formal grading certification and encapsulation. I was wondering the same. I consider myself new to the hobby + grading and don’t want to steer anyone wrong; but I would be tempted to submit it for grading if it were mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 It is hard to tell the grade of this coin from the pictures posted. I can say that it would have to grade at least a MS 63 to pay for its trip. For myself this coin would be put in a 2.5 X 2.5 flip and labeled good enough. RonnieR131 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 Hello. The topic of cleaning and how to detect it can only be done by an in hand visual inspection. While you can see hairlines if the coin was lightly cleaned or deep hairlines if the coin was aggressively cleaned, these can sometimes only be seen by tilting the coin to the lighting in the room and even then, can be sometimes difficult to detect. I have many Morgans that have come back that look normal but were hit with the cleaned designation and sometimes only either the obverse or the reverse were were affected by the cleaning. It can be very difficult to detect sometimes. All that said, depending on the lighting and what you used to take the photo of your coin, if I were to be looking to purchase it hypothetically (I am not but I am approaching this as if I were looking at yours in an online listing), being yours is in my opinion low end MS (I would think MS 61), I think there is sufficient evidence by the changes of lighting to say this coin has a lot of chatter from its time in the mint bag or light handling, but still retains its original surface. Once again, if I were to have the coin in hand for a true visual inspection, I may completely reverse my opinion. Unless a cleaning was done very harshly, it is difficult to impossible to tell a cleaning from just a photo sorry to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob’s Coins Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 On 10/12/2024 at 9:13 PM, J P M said: It is hard to tell the grade of this coin from the pictures posted. I can say that it would have to grade at least a MS 63 to pay for its trip. I know most people want to see at least a $200 coin for submission. Maybe your threshold is higher. When I look at the price guide. Let’s say hypothetically it could grade an MS 61. Are you saying that the hypothetical prices for a 1897 O Morgan are inflated or that your threshold for submitting is much higher? I see most Morgan’s at this grade are around $100 - $200 at this grade range but the O seems much higher. What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 On 10/14/2024 at 8:06 PM, Rob’s Coins said: I know most people want to see at least a $200 coin for submission. Maybe your threshold is higher. When I look at the price guide. Let’s say hypothetically it could grade an MS 61. Are you saying that the hypothetical prices for a 1897 O Morgan are inflated or that your threshold for submitting is much higher? I see most Morgan’s at this grade are around $100 - $200 at this grade range but the O seems much higher. What am I missing? Sorry I thought it was a Philly coin. The picture is so bad I did not see the Orleans mint mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 @Rob’s Coins--I also thought that the coin posted here is an 1897, not an 1897-O. The "O" is very hard to see on the posted images, and apparently you are the first one to notice it, so "good catch"! If the coin were to "straight grade" as either low MS or AU 58, it might be worth submitting, but if designated "cleaned" probably not. That is why it is still important to learn how to grade yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TE USAF Posted October 15 Author Share Posted October 15 You all have been great on my question. Thank you all!!! i am going to try to upload better photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TE USAF Posted October 15 Author Share Posted October 15 As soon as I figure out how to submit a coin for grading I will send this one in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 Unfortunately, the newer photos are no better. (They do give the impression that the coin has been "cleaned" or at least has been excessively "dipped".) For one thing, please crop the images to minimize the surface surrounding the coin. It can be difficult to photograph bright coins because of the glare; the first images were too dark in places, and the new ones are overexposed. It is often better to adjust the lighting, which may have to be at least in part from a table lamp at the side until you get the sharpest image possible. The images of this 1891 (which NGC subsequently graded MS 63) are among my better ones: On 10/15/2024 at 12:25 AM, TE USAF said: As soon as I figure out how to submit a coin for grading I will send this one in. I do my best to discourage those who don't have substantial knowledge of grading from submitting coins themselves. I recommend that you have this and any other coins that you are thinking of submitting evaluated by a reputable dealer and possibly to submit any coins found to be worthwhile through the dealer. See How to Submit | NGC (ngccoin.com) and its parts for instructions on how to submit, including (at the bottom of the page) a link to the directory of NGC member dealers. Submitting just one coin would be especially inefficient, as it would involve $38 in per order processing and return shipping fees, in addition to a $40 "Standard" tier grading fee (for a coin valued over $300 and not more than $3,000) and your cost of shipping the coin to NGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 On 10/14/2024 at 11:25 PM, TE USAF said: As soon as I figure out how to submit a coin for grading I will send this one in. Another case of putting the cart before the horse. There is a logical progression of knowledge in this field and virtually NO NEW COLLECTORS have the ability to follow it. DO NOT BE IN SUCH A DAMNED HURRY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob’s Coins Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 You mentioned you have several coins from your father’s collection. I would do more research. I personally like to have around 15 decent coins minimum to help distribute the shipping costs among several coins. Especially if some don’t turn out the way you want. Someone mentioned taking them to a coin shop or a reputable person to look at them in hand. Also a great suggestion for a person new to the hobby. I hope for your sake that father had some good collecting insite. Good luck. I enjoy the coins I got from my grandfather. Just sentimental for me that I wanted them in a hard case so I can handle them frequently and not need to worry about scratching them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
