Business Strike Steel Pennies... 1 1

[Malamute]

I have about 300 1943 uncirculated business strike steel pennies in mint condition. The majority are no mint mark Philadelphia, 60 Denvers and 28 San Francisco. What are they approximately worth and are they worth enough to have graded? 

* The picture below was shot through a plastic sleeve. 

 

Edited October 10 by Malamute

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/10/2024 at 5:27 PM, Malamute said:

I have about 300 1943 uncirculated business strike steel pennies in mint condition. The majority are no mint mark Philadelphia, 60 Denvers and 28 San Francisco. What are they approximately worth and are they worth enough to have graded? 

* The picture below was shot through a plastic sleeve. 

 

Very nice accumulation.  Do yourself a giant favor and do not have them certified.  I do not believe any have appreciated enough in the years since to make certification cost effective.

[Sandon]

   In all likelihood, none, or at best very few of these coins would be worth the cost of submission to a third-party grading service, which is what I assume you mean by "hav[ing them] graded." Unless and until you have learned how to grade and otherwise evaluate coins yourself, you should not be considering submitting coins like these to grading services.

   "Mint condition", assuming that the coins have no wear and were not replated--as, unfortunately, vast quantities of 1943 zinc coated steel cents have been--could mean any grade from MS 60 up. Retail (dealer sell) prices listed in the NGC Price Guide for uncirculated 1943 steel cents range from all of $1.05 in MS 60 to $3,200 in MS 68, the highest whole number grade awarded by NGC, with similar valuations for the Denver and San Francisco issues in all but the highest grades. See Lincoln Cents, Wheat Reverse (1909-1958) | Price Guide & Values | NGC (ngccoin.com).  It is not possible to provide a reliable estimate of the grade of the coin in the image you provided--grading of such pieces requires in-person examination in good lighting and at different angles--but based on what I can see and assuming that the reverse is of equal quality, the coin is rather dull, with light fingerprints and scratches, and would appear to grade no better than MS 64, with a retail value of $19.

   The least expensive ("Economy") tier grading fee applicable to these coins for collectors who have a paid annual NGC membership would be $23 per coin, to which would be added per order processing ($10) and return shipping (minimum $28 for up to ten coins) costs, as well as the cost of shipping to NGC. One of these coins would have to grade at least MS 65 to have a retail list value exceeding the grading fee alone, and even a MS 66, with a retail value of $60, really wouldn't be worth submitting considering that dealers would likely pay no more than half to two thirds of retail value ($30-$40). You would have to be able to select pieces that you have reason to believe would grade at least MS 67 to make the risks inherent in submission worthwhile. Dealer members may be able to receive discounts for bulk submissions, but even they often lose money submitting common pieces like these.

   Here are images of a 1943 steel cent that PCGS graded MS 66 and for which I paid $50 a few years ago. Note its intense frosty luster and sharpness, which based on your image are lacking on your sample coin:

 

[Malamute]

On 10/10/2024 at 7:10 PM, Sandon said:

   In all likelihood, none, or at best very few of these coins would be worth the cost of submission to a third-party grading service, which is what I assume you mean by "hav[ing them] graded." Unless and until you have learned how to grade and otherwise evaluate coins yourself, you should not be considering submitting coins like these to grading services.

   "Mint condition", assuming that the coins have no wear and were not replated--as, unfortunately, vast quantities of 1943 zinc coated steel cents have been--could mean any grade from MS 60 up. Retail (dealer sell) prices listed in the NGC Price Guide for uncirculated 1943 steel cents range from all of $1.05 in MS 60 to $3,200 in MS 68, the highest whole number grade awarded by NGC, with similar valuations for the Denver and San Francisco issues in all but the highest grades. See Lincoln Cents, Wheat Reverse (1909-1958) | Price Guide & Values | NGC (ngccoin.com).  It is not possible to provide a reliable estimate of the grade of the coin in the image you provided--grading of such pieces requires in-person examination in good lighting and at different angles--but based on what I can see and assuming that the reverse is of equal quality, the coin is rather dull, with light fingerprints and scratches, and would appear to grade no better than MS 64, with a retail value of $19.

   The least expensive ("Economy") tier grading fee applicable to these coins for collectors who have a paid annual NGC membership would be $23 per coin, to which would be added per order processing ($10) and return shipping (minimum $28 for up to ten coins) costs, as well as the cost of shipping to NGC. One of these coins would have to grade at least MS 65 to have a retail list value exceeding the grading fee alone, and even a MS 66, with a retail value of $60, really wouldn't be worth submitting considering that dealers would likely pay no more than half to two thirds of retail value ($30-$40). You would have to be able to select pieces that you have reason to believe would grade at least MS 67 to make the risks inherent in submission worthwhile. Dealer members may be able to receive discounts for bulk submissions, but even they often lose money submitting common pieces like these.

   Here are images of a 1943 steel cent that PCGS graded MS 66 and for which I paid $50 a few years ago. Note its intense frosty luster and sharpness, which based on your image are lacking on your sample coin:

 

Keep in mind what you're looking at was shot in a plastic sleeve, as indicated in my post. 

I removed the same penny and these are what it looks like sans the sleeve. It doesn't look dull to me but I'm 'clearly' no expert. 

The T in trust looks a little off. 

[RWB]

All the cents you've posted appear to be average uncirculated coins. Keep them away from moisture, since these things rust easily.

[Coinbuf]

On 10/10/2024 at 5:02 PM, Malamute said:

Keep in mind what you're looking at was shot in a plastic sleeve, as indicated in my post. 

I removed the same penny and these are what it looks like sans the sleeve. It doesn't look dull to me but I'm 'clearly' no expert. 

The T in trust looks a little off. 

It looks like a very nice mid level MS (MS64-MS65) coin that would be a very nice addition to an album or folder type of collector.   But I've taken your obv and rev photos to point out two things that could easily render your coin as damaged at a TPG like NGC   There are very obvious staple scratches on both the obv and rev, I drawn a red box to highlight where these are on the coin.   In addition to the two I've highlighted there are several other minor scratches and nicks, a stained area in the center of the rev, old fingerprints on the obv, and while nice the luster is not booming.   I'm not trying to tear down your coin, it is very nice, but these are the types of things that TPG deduct for when they are grading a coin.

Also, you have asked a few questions about value and would something be worth getting graded by NGC.   If you have not I suggest you look into the NGC coin explorer, this has the NGC price guide as well as other relevant information for each US coin.   Here is a screenshot for the 1943 cent, pay attention to the price guide line for coins that grade as MS64 thru MS66.   As you can see you would need at least an MS66 to have any chance of breaking even after grading fees.

Now it is always important to keep in mind that guide is just that, a guide; there are more places on the web to find recent auction price results that you can also access to see what is happening in the actual real marketplace.  So here is a screenshot taken that shows the real sales for 1943 cents auctioned recently at Great Collections coin auctions for the MS65 and MS66 grades.   As you can see this auction data closely aligns with the NGC coin explorer numbers.

I hope that what I've posted here will help you to see that even very nice coins that are as common as the steel cents are just do not justify being graded by a TPG unless at least MS67.

 

[powermad5000]

I would like to add to @Coinbuf's reply that those CAC (green bean) gavel prices being higher mean those were specimens with excellent eye appeal, and thus why those few sold for more premium. Your pictured steel cent is quite nice, but I self grade tough on my coins and my submitted coins usually return with the grades I suspected either coming in as dead on or very close. I would say with some of the minor scratches and minor dings and nicks that this coin would grade highest at MS 65. 

Assuming this is the best cent of the large lot of these that you do have, I would say by the time all would be said and done with all of the costs and fees associated with TPG grading, your net end to the whole deal would be at some loss for you, especially after selling fees or buyers premium get taken out after the coin gets sold. And you would see even less despite these being slabbed if you took them to a dealer. My advice is if you were planning to divest of this many steel cents, you should do it raw, either as lots of say 5 or 10, or even as roll quantity, and either sell them for a buy it now price of your choosing or you could try to auction them, but I think you would find the auction of these even in lot quantity would not sell to your liking.

[RWB]

Coinbuf is giving you sound advice. Keep in mind that the real-world auction results Coinbuf shows are barely the cost of NGC, or PCGS certification and grading. If we subtract that expense from the sale price most of the MS-65 cents have a coin valued at zero or less than zero. Most of the MS-66 coins are valued at only a few dollars after subtracting grading fees. Even the three coins that sold for more than $70 are actually worth less than $20 each after subtracting the grading fees, CAC fee and postage.

Damage, such as outlined in red in the photos, might seem trivial to a novice, but is critical in grading coins for collectors.

Edited October 11 by RWB

[Malamute]

On 10/11/2024 at 1:52 AM, powermad5000 said:

I would like to add to @Coinbuf's reply that those CAC (green bean) gavel prices being higher mean those were specimens with excellent eye appeal, and thus why those few sold for more premium. Your pictured steel cent is quite nice, but I self grade tough on my coins and my submitted coins usually return with the grades I suspected either coming in as dead on or very close. I would say with some of the minor scratches and minor dings and nicks that this coin would grade highest at MS 65. 

Assuming this is the best cent of the large lot of these that you do have, I would say by the time all would be said and done with all of the costs and fees associated with TPG grading, your net end to the whole deal would be at some loss for you, especially after selling fees or buyers premium get taken out after the coin gets sold. And you would see even less despite these being slabbed if you took them to a dealer. My advice is if you were planning to divest of this many steel cents, you should do it raw, either as lots of say 5 or 10, or even as roll quantity, and either sell them for a buy it now price of your choosing or you could try to auction them, but I think you would find the auction of these even in lot quantity would not sell to your liking.

I didn't see the staple mark identified but I have about 300, the first step is to buy a better magnifying device. That was going to be my next post, asking what's best... a loupe or digital magnifier with screen. What shows DDO best also. 

[Malamute]

On 10/10/2024 at 9:58 PM, Coinbuf said:

It looks like a very nice mid level MS (MS64-MS65) coin that would be a very nice addition to an album or folder type of collector.   But I've taken your obv and rev photos to point out two things that could easily render your coin as damaged at a TPG like NGC   There are very obvious staple scratches on both the obv and rev, I drawn a red box to highlight where these are on the coin.   In addition to the two I've highlighted there are several other minor scratches and nicks, a stained area in the center of the rev, old fingerprints on the obv, and while nice the luster is not booming.   I'm not trying to tear down your coin, it is very nice, but these are the types of things that TPG deduct for when they are grading a coin.

Also, you have asked a few questions about value and would something be worth getting graded by NGC.   If you have not I suggest you look into the NGC coin explorer, this has the NGC price guide as well as other relevant information for each US coin.   Here is a screenshot for the 1943 cent, pay attention to the price guide line for coins that grade as MS64 thru MS66.   As you can see you would need at least an MS66 to have any chance of breaking even after grading fees.

Now it is always important to keep in mind that guide is just that, a guide; there are more places on the web to find recent auction price results that you can also access to see what is happening in the actual real marketplace.  So here is a screenshot taken that shows the real sales for 1943 cents auctioned recently at Great Collections coin auctions for the MS65 and MS66 grades.   As you can see this auction data closely aligns with the NGC coin explorer numbers.

I hope that what I've posted here will help you to see that even very nice coins that are as common as the steel cents are just do not justify being graded by a TPG unless at least MS67.

 

I'm here to learn and appreciate the education! I don't consider any of it negative. Thank you for taking the time to highlight the defects and explain the grading process. 

[J P M]

I roll hunt and I am older now, my eyes are not as good as they used to be, so I use my pc with a handheld scope on a stand to make it easier to look at lots of coins. I just want to say don't believe everything you see if you get a scope. Many of us here will help you with questions, just ask.  

[Coinbuf]

On 10/11/2024 at 7:58 AM, Malamute said:

That was going to be my next post, asking what's best... a loupe or digital magnifier with screen. What shows DDO best also. 

I am adamantly against the use of microscopes for most coin collectors, take a moment and read the numerous "is this a DDO" posts just on the first two pages of this section of the forum.   Most will involve high magnification photos taken with one of the coin scopes being sold on the market today, without fail every one of those have turned out to be nothing or at best just some simple worthless strike doubling.   In the past three years the number of fortune hunters and get rich quick hucksters has gone through the roof with most of them touting the use of coin scopes.

What I have seen with most who use this type of equipment is they have no idea what a real DDO or DDR is and just waste a ton of their time getting lost in rabbit holes on worthless strike doubling.   In the hands of a dedicated numismatist it can be helpful in some situations, but for the average coin roll hunter or hobbyist the extreme magnification is total overkill.   I am well north of 60yrs old myself and so I understand that as we age our vision is impacted, but it is my position that if someone has the knowledge to correctly identify the worthless forms of doubling from real and true hub doubling they won't need the scope.   And if someone cannot do so no amount of technology will help them steer clear of the pitfalls of high magnification.

As I have gotten older I will on very rare occasion pull out a 10X loupe, but most of the time my tried-and-true 5X loupe is all I need.   Education and knowledge will almost always trump technology when it comes to coins.

[Malamute]

On 10/11/2024 at 2:43 PM, Coinbuf said:

I am adamantly against the use of microscopes for most coin collectors, take a moment and read the numerous "is this a DDO" posts just on the first two pages of this section of the forum.   Most will involve high magnification photos taken with one of the coin scopes being sold on the market today, without fail every one of those have turned out to be nothing or at best just some simple worthless strike doubling.   In the past three years the number of fortune hunters and get rich quick hucksters has gone through the roof with most of them touting the use of coin scopes.

What I have seen with most who use this type of equipment is they have no idea what a real DDO or DDR is and just waste a ton of their time getting lost in rabbit holes on worthless strike doubling.   In the hands of a dedicated numismatist it can be helpful in some situations, but for the average coin roll hunter or hobbyist the extreme magnification is total overkill.   I am well north of 60yrs old myself and so I understand that as we age our vision is impacted, but it is my position that if someone has the knowledge to correctly identify the worthless forms of doubling from real and true hub doubling they won't need the scope.   And if someone cannot do so no amount of technology will help them steer clear of the pitfalls of high magnification.

As I have gotten older I will on very rare occasion pull out a 10X loupe, but most of the time my tried-and-true 5X loupe is all I need.   Education and knowledge will almost always trump technology when it comes to coins.

I saw all of those digital microscope DDO claims which is why I thought to ask. 

[powermad5000]

On 10/11/2024 at 1:43 PM, Coinbuf said:

I am adamantly against the use of microscopes for most coin collectors, take a moment and read the numerous "is this a DDO" posts just on the first two pages of this section of the forum.   Most will involve high magnification photos taken with one of the coin scopes being sold on the market today, without fail every one of those have turned out to be nothing or at best just some simple worthless strike doubling.   In the past three years the number of fortune hunters and get rich quick hucksters has gone through the roof with most of them touting the use of coin scopes.

What I have seen with most who use this type of equipment is they have no idea what a real DDO or DDR is and just waste a ton of their time getting lost in rabbit holes on worthless strike doubling.   In the hands of a dedicated numismatist it can be helpful in some situations, but for the average coin roll hunter or hobbyist the extreme magnification is total overkill.   I am well north of 60yrs old myself and so I understand that as we age our vision is impacted, but it is my position that if someone has the knowledge to correctly identify the worthless forms of doubling from real and true hub doubling they won't need the scope.   And if someone cannot do so no amount of technology will help them steer clear of the pitfalls of high magnification.

As I have gotten older I will on very rare occasion pull out a 10X loupe, but most of the time my tried-and-true 5X loupe is all I need.   Education and knowledge will almost always trump technology when it comes to coins.

THIS! This is an EXCELLENT response and should be pinned to the top of the Newbie forum!

I'll add for the OP as the responses didn't touch directly to your question, aside from if your eyes are shot as some of ours can get when we get older (I have had bifocals since I was 10 but my eyes are still excellent as of this writing), what magnification device you use is all a matter of personal preference. Some like a loupe. Some would rather use a magnifier that they sell online or in coin shops. I happen to really like the one I got from Hobby Lobby. It is a 10X that slides into itself to protect the magnifier when not in use and has a little light on it that turns on when you open it. The light failed quickly but that is ok because I still used a separate pen flashlight for additional light anyway. I still use this method even at coin shows and I have yet to have it let me down. That said, I do carry my 7X loupe to coin shows as well and have had situations where it came in handy on certain coins, mostly old coppers. Some people will say 15X works better for their eyes. 30X is really pushing it in my opinion and that may be useful for finding obscure and unattributed varieties but to me there is no point in searching for these varieties if they will not be attributed by the professionals.

So the answer for you (and for anyone else reading the thread), you use whatever magnifier that works the best for you. Standard, loupe, 5X, 7X, 10X... whatever helps you accurately see a coin's surface is what you use. You may end up buying several different types before you find something you really like.

Edited October 11 by powermad5000