Double Struck & 178 Degree Rotation in Collar 1 1

[Bob Bennett]

This is a 1960-D Lincoln Cent and one of some Double Struck and Rotated in Collar coins in my collection.  At first I felt it was a Test Strike by the Mint to check alignment and strike pressure because I do have one graded as such in a 90 Degree Rotation and have seen others also graded the same and the First Strike is always softer than the Second Strike.  You can tell the First Strike has been softened by the Second Strike with this coin.  The best rotation I have seen has been about 120 degree on a coin that I also have (1982-P Lincoln Cent) but this is a first for me to see one that is almost a full 180 Degree rotation.  What do you think?

[Greenstang]

First time I have seen that. Trying to figure out how it would turn almost 180 degrees in the collar between strikes.  
Maybe some help from a mint worker? Regardless it is a nice find.

[RWB]

Made on a toggle press. Coin was partially ejected then rotated and was struck again -- if it is a legitimate error and not a fabrication made in Colorado or Chizhou city. Make sure the rotation (in degrees) is identical on both sides.

Edited September 12 by RWB

[powermad5000]

Hello and welcome to the forum!
 

I also would check the rotation on both sides and make sure it is legit. The only thing that bothers me about this is that I always thought that in the case of a double struck, and with this being the claim is strike one was of insufficient pressure, and strike two being of nearly correct pressure, that on double struck coins, the second strike nearly obliterates all details of the first strike except the highest parts of the relief, unless it is double struck off center. I don't see how things like LIBERTY and IN GOD WE TRUST from the first strike were not pretty much completely obliterated by the second full pressure strike and the same on the reverse. Especially anything in the fields where the die is flat and the pressure is greatest should be obliterated, no? Am I wrong about this? I was looking on Sullivan Numismatics at some double struck in collar coins and there were a few that were fully centered. One was an Ike dollar and all you could see of the first strike was an outline of Ike and some very very faint edge details but that's it.

If I am wrong, ok, but I am not really sure how this was created then.

Edited September 12 by powermad5000

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/12/2024 at 12:47 PM, Bob Bennett said:

....  What do you think?

What do I think?  ("You talkin' to me?  I don't see anyone else here.")   🤣

🐓   :  Trick photography, Q!  Me think like Apache:  White man speak with forked tongue!

Q.A.:  No, no, to be perfectly frank, I can easily see a sleight of hand as a possibility, but @RWB 's measured response gives me pause.  Anyone can set two coins up for a photo shoot, but will they be able to find an example with the same type of post-Mint damage and color?  More to the point, would they be able to provide a seemingly plausible narrative?  I am inclined to give the OP the benefit of the doubt. I cannot envision what, if anything, the OP stands to gain with showposting. Verdict:  👍 

[dcarr]

On 9/12/2024 at 11:44 AM, RWB said:

Made on a toggle press. Coin was partially ejected then rotated and was struck again -- if it is a legitimate error and not a fabrication made in Colorado or Chizhou city. Make sure the rotation (in degrees) is identical on both sides.

.

 

I do not think that is a legitimate US Mint error. Of course, the owner could submit it for authentication and then we will see.

It looks like a coin was pressed against some piece of metal, and then that piece of metal was pressed against that same coin or a different coin.

Note the vertical bulge through the secondary "LIBERTY". Warping like that does not occur under a die because the die will not flex like that and the die would keep the coin surface generally flat.

 

Edited Friday at 05:39 PM by dcarr

[J P M]

On 9/13/2024 at 4:37 AM, dcarr said:

.

 

I do not think that is a legitimate US Mint error. Of course, the owner could submit it for authentication and then we will see.

It looks like a coin was pressed against some piece of metal, an then that piece of metal was pressed against that same coin or a different coin.

Note the vertical bulge through the secondary "LIBERTY". Warping like that does not occur under a die because the die will not flex like that and the die would keep the coin surface generally flat.

 

I think Dan has a good answer, I see on the reverse on ONE CENT the second strike looks like it is on top of those devices. Therefore, the second strike was the weaker strike and that is not normally the case. But I do not have the coin in hand and can only see what was posted so it is only my speculation.

[Bob Bennett]

Well it looks like this has spurred some interest and as it should.  This is not manmade coin or made in China but a genuine Mint Error and I have seen this on other coins.  How did this happen?  The First Strike was normal, but the piece was struck a Second Time, rotated almost exactly 180 degrees from the initial strike.  Presumably, the coin did not leave the Die Chamber between strikes, and the Collar Die was obstructed for the second strike.  Much detail is present from the first strike, including a full date and Lincoln Profile.  The strike is also well defined and well outlined.  Both sides are unabraded with only a hint of friction on the high points.  This is possible and has happened before as Sullivan and Byers have submitted this kind of strike and both PCGS and NGC has actually graded such type of strikes.  The now most famous is the 1925 $2.50 Indian Gold Coin and I will show you photos of that coin to start along with a 1991 Lincoln Cent.  Both were graded by NGC and both as 180 Degree Rotations.

[Bob Bennett]

On 9/13/2024 at 4:37 AM, dcarr said:

.

 

I do not think that is a legitimate US Mint error. Of course, the owner could submit it for authentication and then we will see.

It looks like a coin was pressed against some piece of metal, an then that piece of metal was pressed against that same coin or a different coin.

Note the vertical bulge through the secondary "LIBERTY". Warping like that does not occur under a die because the die will not flex like that and the die would keep the coin surface generally flat.

 

Maybe a better look at this coin will clear up your thinking...as you may know because of the differences in reliefs you will get inconstancies in strike pressure so you will see highs and lows that give the effect of letters either on top or underneath each other is the best way I can describe it for you but I guarantee you this is real and extremely rare to see.  I posted some others for you to look at especially the $2.50 Indian that sold at Heritage for over $55K because of the rarity of the coin.

[Bob Bennett]

On 9/13/2024 at 12:49 PM, Bob Bennett said:

Maybe a better look at this coin will clear up your thinking...as you may know because of the differences in reliefs you will get inconstancies in strike pressure so you will see highs and lows that give the effect of letters either on top or underneath each other is the best way I can describe it for you but I guarantee you this is real and extremely rare to see.  I posted some others for you to look at especially the $2.50 Indian that sold at Heritage for over $55K because of the rarity of the coin.

Another look at the Obverse as well!

[dcarr]

On 9/13/2024 at 10:49 AM, Bob Bennett said:

Maybe a better look at this coin will clear up your thinking...as you may know because of the differences in reliefs you will get inconstancies in strike pressure so you will see highs and lows that give the effect of letters either on top or underneath each other is the best way I can describe it for you but I guarantee you this is real and extremely rare to see.  I posted some others for you to look at especially the $2.50 Indian that sold at Heritage for over $55K because of the rarity of the coin.

It is a genuine coin, but now I am certain that it was altered outside the US Mint. Look how distorted and mushy some of the lettering is. At the upper left of the reverse, both of the superimposed images have mushy lettering. The rims are uneven and the coin is distorted to where it is no longer perfectly round. This is what happens in a "vice job". Here is a vice job that I made as an educational experiment (not to sell). Note the image of a larger Eisenhower Dollar superimposed on a Kennedy Half Dollar. Also note that the Kennedy has a "D" mint mark, but the "S" mint mark from the Eisenhower is clearly visible between the "9" and "7".

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 05:54 PM by dcarr

[Coinbuf]

I had my doubts about the OP's coin but was unsure until I saw Dan's educational piece, that cements the op's coin as not legit for me.

[Bob Bennett]

On 9/12/2024 at 1:44 PM, RWB said:

Made on a toggle press. Coin was partially ejected then rotated and was struck again -- if it is a legitimate error and not a fabrication made in Colorado or Chizhou city. Make sure the rotation (in degrees) is identical on both sides.

The strike is identical on both sides...they line up perfectly....the first strike is under the secondary strike and created the flattening and softening of the first strike as I have seen on other double struck coins with rotation in collar!

[Bob Bennett]

On 9/13/2024 at 1:52 PM, dcarr said:

It is a genuine coin, but now I am certain that it was altered outside the US Mint. Look how distorted and mushy some of the lettering is. At the upper left of the reverse, both of the superimposed images have mushy lettering. The rims are uneven and the coin is distorted to where it is no longer perfectly round. This is what happens in a "vice job". Here is a vice job that I made as an educational experiment (not to sell). Note the image of a larger Eisenhower Dollar superimposed on a Kennedy Half Dollar. Also note that the Kennedy has a "D" mint mark, but the "S" mint mark from the Eisenhower is clearly visible between the "9" and "7".

 

 

 

Is this a Photoshop app you're using because it sure looks like it....you superimposed two images together by overlapping them making it look like a two denomination coin???  I'm a little confused by what you did and there are apps where you can do this overlapping. 

[Sandon]

   It is unclear to me as well whether this is a genuine double struck 1960-D large date cent or an alteration.  You might consider (1) posting it on the CONECA forum, https://board.conecaonline.org/forum, or (2) requesting an opinion from Jon Sullivan, the well-known errors dealer, at https://sullivannumismatics.com/contact-us/. You could also submit it to a reputable grading service, but it might be best to obtain at least some opinions that it is genuine first.

[dcarr]

On 9/13/2024 at 10:49 AM, Bob Bennett said:

Maybe a better look at this coin will clear up your thinking...as you may know because of the differences in reliefs you will get inconstancies in strike pressure so you will see highs and lows that give the effect of letters either on top or underneath each other is the best way I can describe it for you but I guarantee you this is real and extremely rare to see.  I posted some others for you to look at especially the $2.50 Indian that sold at Heritage for over $55K because of the rarity of the coin.

Imagine that the photo of the Memorial side is a view looking straight down at the ground. The letters and design devices are like mountains and hills and ridges. The coin is struck normally the first time and the mountains, hills, and ridges are formed. The ridges (letters) have somewhat rounded tops in profile.

Then the coin is rotated 180 degrees and the die comes down again. Where the die is flat (no lettering or design elements) is where the die will first make contact with the coin. The first thing that will happen is the flat areas of the die will flatten everything that is under it. When the original letters are mashed, they will become flat plateaus that are pushed down. Look at the 1991 cent you posted. The original "LIBERTY" is visible above the newly-struck date. But those letters in LIBERTY are totally flattened and only an outline of them remains.

Take a coin and, using a vice or small press, press it into a piece of metal that is about the same hardness (like a piece of virgin copper). The design elements will be transferred to the copper piece, although they will not be quite as sharp as the coin was. The coin itself will also lose some sharpness and may stretch to a slightly larger (distorted) diameter. Rotate the coin 180 degrees and press the copper piece onto it. Because the copper piece is not harder than the coin, a secondary image of the coin is impressed in the copper while the image already in the copper is also pressed back onto the coin. The two images merge and the over-lapping design elements tend to be additive in relief height.

In other words, the relief height on your coin is sort of like the relief height of a normal image averaged with the relief height of the rotated image:

final_surface_height = (height_of_first_strike + height_of_rotated_strike) / 2

But when the die steel is much harder than the coin, what it should be is the lesser of the two strikes:

final_surface_height = height_of_first_strike < height_of_rotated_strike

PS:

My Eisenhower on Kennedy is not a "photo-shopped" image. It is an unmanipulated photo of the result of my "vice job".

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 08:43 AM by dcarr

[Bob Bennett]

On 9/13/2024 at 9:58 PM, dcarr said:

Imagine that the photo of the Memorial side is a view looking straight down at the ground. The letters and design devices are like mountains and hills and ridges. The coin is struck normally the first time and the mountains, hills, and ridges are formed. The ridges (letters) have somewhat rounded tops in profile.

Then the coin is rotated 180 degrees and the die comes down again. Where the die is flat (no lettering or design elements) is where the die will first make contact with the coin. The first thing that will happen is the flat areas of the die will flatten everything that is under it. When the original letters are mashed, they will become flat plateaus that are pushed down. Look at the 1991 cent you posted. The original "LIBERTY" is visible above the newly-struck date. But those letters in LIBERTY are totally flattened and only an outline of them remains.

Take a coin and, using a vice or small press, press it into a piece of metal that is about the same hardness (like a piece of virgin copper). The design elements will be transferred to the copper piece, although they will not be quite as sharp as the coin was. The coin itself will also lose some sharpness and may stretch to a slightly larger (distorted) diameter. Rotate the coin 180 degrees and press the copper piece onto it. Because the copper piece is not harder than the coin, a secondary image of the coin is impressed in the copper while the image already in the copper is also pressed back onto the coin. The two images merge and the over-lapping design elements tend to be additive in relief height.

In other words, the relief height on your coin is sort of like the relief height of a normal image averaged with the relief height of the rotated image:

final_surface_height = (height_of_first_strike + height_of_rotated_strike) / 2

But when the die steel is much harder than the coin, what it should be is the lesser of the two strikes:

final_surface_height = height_of_first_strike < height_of_rotated_strike

PS:

My Eisenhower on Kennedy is not a "photo-shopped" image. It is an unmanipulated photo of the result of my "vice job".

 

 

 

 

 

Well all things considered and the comments from you fellow members and Mike Byers who is probably the best known for this type of error I believe it is correct to say that we have seen one of the best Counterfeit/Fake full set of Dies (Obverse and Reverse) created that made the Second Strike on this Lincoln Cent and the only way to be completely certain is to have the coin graded by NGC or PCGS to remove all doubt!

[dcarr]

On 9/14/2024 at 10:54 AM, Bob Bennett said:

Well all things considered and the comments from you fellow members and Mike Byers who is probably the best known for this type of error I believe it is correct to say that we have seen one of the best Counterfeit/Fake full set of Dies (Obverse and Reverse) created that made the Second Strike on this Lincoln Cent and the only way to be completely certain is to have the coin graded by NGC or PCGS to remove all doubt!

I do not agree that it is "one of the best" pairs of copy dies used for this type of thing. The "dies" were made of soft metal, not hard steel. The sharpness of the secondary strike is considerably lacking compared to a genuine strike, and it is also wavy and uneven.

But I do agree that, if you want to be sure and settle the question completely, go ahead and submit it to NGC or similar.

PS:

The secondary strike is the image that is up-side-down (rotated 180 degrees) in your pictures.

 

Edited Saturday at 07:53 PM by dcarr

[Bob Bennett]

On 9/14/2024 at 3:50 PM, dcarr said:

I do not agree that it is "one of the best" pairs of copy dies used for this type of thing. The "dies" were made of soft metal, not hard steel. The sharpness of the secondary strike is considerably lacking compared to a genuine strike, and it is also wavy and uneven.

But I do agree that, if you want to be sure and settle the question completely, go ahead and submit it to NGC or similar.

PS:

The secondary strike is the image that is up-side-down (rotated 180 degrees) in your pictures.

 

I get it and agree...no need for grading...great response and a good conversation...never tried this forum stuff before...most are a waste of time!

[Henri Charriere]

Civil discussion is never a waste of time.  What is a waste of time, and money, is a knee-jerk response to have  TPGS settle a dispute.

Contrary to how others may feel, submission should be the act of last resort.  And cavalierly suggesting anyone do just that is just plain wrong.