Another tidbit for Goldfinger1969 0

[Zebo]

Making the trip @goldfinger1969? 
 

Described by researchers as "one of the most important recent discoveries in 20th century American numismatics," the finer of the two known 1921 Satin Finish Proof Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles along with the unique Experimental Finish Proof 1910 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle will make only their third public appearance together.

Insured for $10 million, they will be a featured exhibit in the Museum Showcase area (booth 434) at the American Numismatic Association 2024 Chicago World's Fair of Money® (www.WorldsFairofMoney.com), August 6-10, at the Donald E. Stephens Convention Center in Rosemont, Illinois.

Hendelson will also have another extremely rare U.S. gold coin in an exhibit, one of the three known Proof 1839/8 overdate Type of 1838 Liberty Head $10 gold coins.

 

[RWB]

Bologna.

Neither coin is a proof of any description and one, which I examined personally, was struck from clashed dies. There is no contemporary documentation.

Edited July 29 by RWB

[Zebo]

On 7/29/2024 at 11:11 AM, RWB said:

Bologna.

Neither coin is a proof of any description and one, which I examined personally, was struck from clashed dies. There is no contemporary documentation.

I was wondering how long it would take you to chime in. Raised my flags when they were advertised last time.

[RWB]

On 7/29/2024 at 2:11 PM, Zebo said:

I was wondering how long it would take you to chime in. Raised my flags when they were advertised last time.

Compare the hyped photos with a sandblast DE proof of any year. You'll immediately notice the inferior detail. I'll wager the independent written report was not provided, and detailed examination or comparison with authentic proofs or coinage of 1921. Of course, that's just opinion since NCG did not ask for input.

Now that NGC certified the things, it's their problem to prove their claims.

[Zebo]

On 7/29/2024 at 2:39 PM, RWB said:

Compare the hyped photos with a sandblast DE proof of any year. You'll immediately notice the inferior detail. I'll wager the independent written report was not provided, and detailed examination or comparison with authentic proofs or coinage of 1921. Of course, that's just opinion since NCG did not ask for input.

Now that NGC certified the things, it's their problem to prove their claims.

Not NGC: PCGS with beans

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/29/2024 at 2:11 PM, Zebo said:

I was wondering how long it would take you to chime in. Raised my flags when they were advertised last time.

 🐓 :  You used to be real good, Quintus, but you're all washed up.  I'm getting with @Zebo .

Q.A.:  HOW'S THAT FOR GRATITUDE!  SHEESH! 

[RWB]

On 7/29/2024 at 2:53 PM, Zebo said:

Not NGC: PCGS with beans

 

Without detailed explanations of the label titles (not sales hype, but real documents and analysis prepared by objective examination AND vetted by others no connected with owners or TPG) neither is believable. Merely more "New and Improved" moldy bologna.

[J P M]

On 7/29/2024 at 7:24 PM, RWB said:

Without detailed explanations of the label titles (not sales hype, but real documents and analysis prepared by objective examination AND vetted by others no connected with owners or TPG) neither is believable. Merely more "New and Improved" moldy bologna.

 Have TPG companies become the gospel of numismatics. Does whatever they say the coin is on the label the final word. (Like 1964 SMS) How many experts came up with this truth? Does CAC agree with the label or going buy the grade to give it a bean. I have to say Roger has a good question on these coins.

[VKurtB]

On 7/29/2024 at 8:44 PM, J P M said:

 Have TPG companies become the gospel of numismatics. Does whatever they say the coin is on the label the final word. (Like 1964 SMS) How many experts came up with this truth? Does CAC agree with the label or going buy the grade to give it a bean. I have to say Roger has a good question on these coins.

The problem is that Roger is a jury of one, and at least four other top authenticators disagree with Roger. Of course this IS the NGC discussion board where Roger’s opinion FREQUENTLY stands utterly alone. Roger is the Sheldon Cooper of numismatics, in that his opinion is superior to as many counter-opinions as can exist. 

Edited July 30 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 7/29/2024 at 8:44 PM, J P M said:

Have TPG companies become the gospel of numismatics.

As a matter of fact, like it or not, yes, they basically have. Otherwise, why would so many pay “stupid money” for their opinions? 

[Zebo]

I would like to know a couple of things about the two coins. Who were the researchers and what they based their conclusions on. I am sure something has been written on the two coins that would shed light on my questions. I just haven’t seen it - although I haven’t looked for it either.

[Henri Charriere]

Being a certified ignoramus on such matters, there is nothing I can add to the conversation.  I can however cite tw"o important points upon which the entire "controversy" pivots.

One is the fact they have, according to the OPs account which no on thus far has contested, that the two coins have made their only joint appearance together in one hundred years, the greater part of which occurred in their natural RAW state.  What exactly was said about them during that extended interval, and by whom.  Any initial impressions became important in this regard.  Researchers tend to consult "original" sources when developing a narrative and, unfortunately, perhaps unavoidable, there is a predisposition to co-sign or rubber stamp others' findings and conclusions. Those, like Roger perhaps, are the exception, not the rule.  It takes a free spirit with an open independent mind, to go against the weight of the "evidence" and considerable courage. In 1600, Giordano Bruno called bologna and said it was the sun, and not the Earth that was the body around which other celestial objects revolved. He was given a chance to recant, refused on principle, and was promptly burned at the stake. 🐓 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/29/2024 at 11:11 AM, RWB said:

Bologna. Neither coin is a proof of any description and one, which I examined personally, was struck from clashed dies. There is no contemporary documentation.

These are the two 1921's one of which went to the confectionary family in SanFran, right ?  I have the details in my files.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/30/2024 at 6:30 AM, Zebo said:

I would like to know a couple of things about the two coins. Who were the researchers and what they based their conclusions on. I am sure something has been written on the two coins that would shed light on my questions. I just haven’t seen it - although I haven’t looked for it either.

I have the HA writeups but I think Roger's is the best from his book. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/29/2024 at 10:46 PM, VKurtB said:

The problem is that Roger is a jury of one, and at least four other top authenticators disagree with Roger. Of course this IS the NGC discussion board where Roger’s opinion FREQUENTLY stands utterly alone. Roger is the Sheldon Cooper of numismatics, in that his opinion is superior to as many counter-opinions as can exist. 

Or....it could be that the TPGs have a lower threshold for identifying a special coin than Roger. 

I can appreciate that.  While I think it can be taken to extremes, I also think that if a TPG or numismatic collector/expert is convinced they have a special coin, I don't have a problem with a label certifiying it as such IF there's a legitimate reason for it.  

It's a tricky balancing act, no doubt.  It arises passions, no doubt.  There can be excesses and even fraud, no doubt.

At the same time, I LOVE a good story and if there is a good reason to believe the background story or facts concerning a coin -- i.e., the 1928 Double Eagle bag and the story of the stolen 1928's -- I think we are better for it.

I heartily recommend checking out the commentaries on HA and SB for coins like Double Eagles, as well as the few books out there including Roger's magnus opus. 

[RWB]

On 7/29/2024 at 9:44 PM, J P M said:

 Have TPG companies become the gospel of numismatics. Does whatever they say the coin is on the label the final word. (Like 1964 SMS) How many experts came up with this truth? Does CAC agree with the label or going buy the grade to give it a bean. I have to say Roger has a good question on these coins.

Your question is fundamental to intellectual integrity and truth in numismatics. The "old time" process involved open disclosure and discussion among many people. Some with years of experience and others with more limited background but new ideas. It was after publication of articles and months of discussion that a consensus was reached and the decision accepted by major dealers, auction catalogers, and especially the Guide Book editors.

Today, TPGs make an anonymous pronouncement almost completely devoid of published fact and analysis. There is no collector peer review of options or ideas. Nothing is disclosed about coin owner involvement or other vested interests. A decision is made in secret, but often accompanied by self-serving promotion.

Which approach is better?

I vote for the first.

[RWB]

On 7/30/2024 at 6:30 AM, Zebo said:

I would like to know a couple of things about the two coins. Who were the researchers and what they based their conclusions on. I am sure something has been written on the two coins that would shed light on my questions. I just haven’t seen it - although I haven’t looked for it either.

All that publicly exists is promotional nonsense and unsubstantiated assertion. No TPG has published a detailed factual examination and analysis, nor has any original documentation been published relating to the pieces. Secret decisions benefiting favored persons.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/29/2024 at 9:44 PM, J P M said:

 Have TPG companies become the gospel of numismatics. Does whatever they say the coin is on the label the final word. (Like 1964 SMS) How many experts came up with this truth? Does CAC agree with the label or going buy the grade to give it a bean. I have to say Roger has a good question on these coins.

To me, the label is NOT the FINAL WORD....it's the opening salvo to FURTHER EXPLORE.

I take nothing on the label as Gospel, especially alleged special factors.

Edited July 31 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 7/30/2024 at 11:30 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

To me, the label is NOT the FINAL WORD.

Sadly, most accept the TPG opinion as fact and spend immense sums of smoke, mirrors and farts.