Manchu11B Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Came across this penny earlier. It weighs 2.51 grams which fits the bill for post 1982 memorial penny’s. However there is no copper on this coin. If the copper was chemically removed, I would expect the coin to weigh less than 2.51 grams. I looked on the internet for similar situations and I don’t appear to have a unique situation. It is not magnetic at all (rare earth magnet tested). The rim is the same material and smooth. The imprint on the coin is crisp. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Plating removed. Mike Meenderink and Sandon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Welcome to the NGC chat board. These cents are composed of a core of nearly pure zinc, which is gray in color, that is plated with a thin layer of pure copper. There have been planchets (blanks) that failed to receive the copper plating and were struck into coins but based on the grainy surface of this coin and its obvious surface damage, it is far more likely that the copper plating was removed by some physical or chemical process. You should not hold a coin that you believe may have collector value in your bare hands. Skin oils can be quite detrimental to coins, and zinc is an even more chemically active metal than copper. If you must touch a coin with your bare hands, hold it only by its edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu11B Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 I understand. I’m not trying to be difficult, but there would be a significant difference in weight if the copper portion was removed chemically. I cleaned the coin so I could figure out what was. It was black as pitch which I would assume was oxidized zinc. So if the coin weights 2.5 grams with 5% copper then it should weight 2.5 minus the copper component of .125 grams or 2.375 grams. This is not the case as I calibrated my scale several times and consistently get 2.51 grams. The surface of the coin looks rough because of the oxidation of the zinc. The imprint is very crisp. I will look for a regular cent to compare side by side for reference. Thank you for your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 (edited) On 7/16/2024 at 6:02 PM, Sandon said: Skin oils can be quite detrimental to coins This is true but.... copper coins are not as susceptible to damage from skin oils as silver or even gold coins are. While I do not advise touching or holding PF or MS coins of ANY composition on the face with your bare fingers a copper coin is not really chemically vulnerable to organic skin oils. Infact some conservation methods of older copper coins XF and lower require a final light application of skin oil (as to reproduce/ replace the original skin oiled /handled coin surface without damaging the coin) gently rubbed on the surface of a freshly conserved copper coin. I use this method myself on my early cents (I get a bit of oil from my forehead) and it works great as a surface protectant oil and helps the coins regain the natural looking semi shiny chocolate brown surfaces just as it should be. Edited July 17 by Mike Meenderink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 What you may be forgetting is the coin could have started its life out as a "heavy" specimen to begin with, possibly struck on a slightly heavier planchet. So, if it was and this coin began its life at the upper end of mint tolerance of 2.5g + .12g or 2.62g and then the plating was then removed, then we would end up basically where we are at here and now with a cent missing the plating but having this stated weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 On 7/16/2024 at 9:37 PM, Manchu11B said: there would be a significant difference in weight if the copper portion was removed chemically. That's not true! We're talking about plating here, not a cladding layer as on a dime or quarter. The plating is extremely thin. I don't know what the unplated 99.2% zinc blank is supposed to weigh, but the weight of the copper plating is likely only hundredths of a gram. The legal weight of the finished coin is 2.5 grams, with a tolerance of plus or minus 0.1 gram per my 1985 Coin World Almanac, so the coin could legally weigh anywhere between 2.4 and 2.6 grams, and the presence or absence of the plating would make no material difference in the weight. (The tolerance may have been increased to 0.12 grams since my book was published.) On 7/16/2024 at 9:37 PM, Manchu11B said: I cleaned the coin so I could figure out what was. It was black as pitch which I would assume was oxidized zinc. This was the worst thing you could have done! You altered or destroyed the original surface of the coin, which for collectors is much of its value. In this case, what was "black as pitch" may well have been the copper plating, which had darkened due to environmental exposure, such as from the coin having been buried in the ground. I have seen many blackened copper and copper plated coins as a result of such environmental damage. We will now never know whether the coin might have been a mint error, which appears unlikely in any event, or whether, as I think, it was simply a normal copper plated zinc cent whose plating was stripped off. On 7/16/2024 at 10:56 PM, Mike Meenderink said: copper coins are not as susceptible to damage from skin oils as silver or even gold coins are. That's not my experience. No coin is more likely to develop a darkening fingerprint than a copper coin, and it's my understanding that handling is mostly what causes copper coins to turn from red to brown. The zinc coating on the 1943 steel cents turned dark gray or even black after only a little circulation. Mike, from what source are you getting your information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 On 7/16/2024 at 8:36 PM, Sandon said: No coin is more likely to develop a darkening fingerprint than a copper coin, and it's my understanding that handling is mostly what causes copper coins to turn from red to brown. Thats just silly copper is naturally prone to verdigris and going brown skin oils or not. I have seen copper gutters that turn the same colors of brown and have malachite all over them. Were they fondled by millions of hands to turn brown? LOL SILLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 On 7/16/2024 at 8:36 PM, Sandon said: Mike, from what source are you getting your information? MYSELF AND MY LIFE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 On 7/16/2024 at 9:56 PM, Mike Meenderink said: copper coins are not as susceptible to damage from skin oils as silver or even gold coins are. What the … ???? This is 100 percent untrue. Copper is VAAAAASTLY more reactive than either silver or gold. Where in the world does Mike keep dragging these untruths from? ldhair and Sandon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 On 7/17/2024 at 12:45 AM, Mike Meenderink said: MYSELF AND MY LIFE On 7/17/2024 at 3:17 PM, VKurtB said: What the … ???? This is 100 percent untrue. Copper is VAAAAASTLY more reactive than either silver or gold. Where in the world does Mike keep dragging these untruths from? Sorry Mike I have been an electrician most of my life and installed many copper lights. Yes copper gets darker and green with time but if you don't have gloves on when installing the lights everywhere you touch with your hands is darker in only a day or so. powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Let's just agree to disagree. You can have your opinions. I am not advocating for touching coins. I am merely stating skin oil is the least of coppers enemies. My comments were in reference to XF and lower graded copper coins not MS or Proof coins. JPM while I agree touching the copper lights with bare hands may cause toning but IMO this is due to the OTHER contaminants like dirt or other things on your hand not just the oils. Guess I'm just a rebel. No worries ill agree with you guys to a point but then it's a bit murky since I've put skin oil on XF and lower copper coins that I've had for 10 plus years and have seen NO detrimental effects. In fact, the coins still look exactly as they did when conserved and flipped. So, I guess I'm a rebel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 On 7/17/2024 at 2:17 PM, VKurtB said: Copper is VAAAAASTLY more reactive than either silver or gold. This is what I always thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu11B Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 So, this post went off on a tangent fairly quickly. The problem I have with some of the comments is that opinions were made without physically seeing the coin and judging off of grainy pictures. I’ve posted in the chats before and was not impressed with the people skills at all. Very snarky and holier than thou attitude about a simple question. I’ve been an exploration geologist for over 25 years and went to very good schools where I learned about lots of mineral and economic aspects of precious metals. I have a strong chemistry background as well as statistics and data analysis. It seems like the responses are based off of preconceived notion's and it’s absolutely not possible that a unique situation is here (actually not as I’ve seen graded zinc pennies). But his attitude is what makes coin collecting not so much fun when you ask a simple question and it turns into a rant about no way is it possible or it’s PMD, or negative comments about coin cleaning, etc…. The bottom line is I have a passion for collecting and if I want to shine the face off the coin because I like it, I will. I also have a ton of backup coins that I care for that I will someday get graded. I’m not a retailer or looking to profit from coins. I enjoy numismatic history and holding that history in my hand. If y’all were doctors, you would have terrible bedside manners. Thank you for input and the comments that were positive. I’ll just go to the various Facebook groups to ask my questions, they are far less snarky and uppity. cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 On 7/17/2024 at 2:51 PM, Mike Meenderink said: skin oil is the least of coppers enemies. This MAY BE TRUE, but it is also irrelevant. The fact that copper is affected more by things other than skin oil DOES NOT IMPLY that silver or gold are more reactive than copper is. Copper is still EXTREMELY REACTIVE. Mike is engaging in a logical fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 On 7/17/2024 at 5:22 PM, Manchu11B said: If y’all were doctors, you would have terrible bedside manners All my doctors DO HAVE terrible bedside manners. This is Northern Alabama, near the Tennessee line, and economic growth and population growth is so rapid that all medical professionals treat everyone like dirt, or a slab of meat with an insurance card, at best. There ARE NO DOCTORS here you’d ever want to visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 On 7/17/2024 at 5:22 PM, Manchu11B said: So, this post went off on a tangent fairly quickly. The problem I have with some of the comments is that opinions were made without physically seeing the coin and judging off of grainy pictures. I’ve posted in the chats before and was not impressed with the people skills at all. Very snarky and holier than thou attitude about a simple question. I’ve been an exploration geologist for over 25 years and went to very good schools where I learned about lots of mineral and economic aspects of precious metals. I have a strong chemistry background as well as statistics and data analysis. It seems like the responses are based off of preconceived notion's and it’s absolutely not possible that a unique situation is here (actually not as I’ve seen graded zinc pennies). But his attitude is what makes coin collecting not so much fun when you ask a simple question and it turns into a rant about no way is it possible or it’s PMD, or negative comments about coin cleaning, etc…. The bottom line is I have a passion for collecting and if I want to shine the face off the coin because I like it, I will. I also have a ton of backup coins that I care for that I will someday get graded. I’m not a retailer or looking to profit from coins. I enjoy numismatic history and holding that history in my hand. If y’all were doctors, you would have terrible bedside manners. Thank you for input and the comments that were positive. I’ll just go to the various Facebook groups to ask my questions, they are far less snarky and uppity. cheers! Facebook groups will tell you limitless lies. J P M and ldhair 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 On 7/17/2024 at 5:22 PM, Manchu11B said: The problem I have with some of the comments is that opinions were made without physically seeing the coin and judging off of grainy pictures. I’ve posted in the chats before and was not impressed with the people skills at all. Very snarky and holier than thou attitude about a simple question. I’ve been an exploration geologist for over 25 years and went to very good schools where I learned about lots of mineral and economic aspects of precious metals. I have a strong chemistry background as well as statistics and data analysis. It seems like the responses are based off of preconceived notion's and it’s absolutely not possible that a unique situation is here (actually not as I’ve seen graded zinc pennies). But his attitude is what makes coin collecting not so much fun when you ask a simple question and it turns into a rant about no way is it possible or it’s PMD, or negative comments about coin cleaning, etc…. The bottom line is I have a passion for collecting and if I want to shine the face off the coin because I like it, I will. I also have a ton of backup coins that I care for that I will someday get graded. I’m not a retailer or looking to profit from coins. I enjoy numismatic history and holding that history in my hand. If y’all were doctors, you would have terrible bedside manners. Thank you for input and the comments that were positive. I’ll just go to the various Facebook groups to ask my questions, they are far less snarky and uppity. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldhair Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 It's hard to be positive with someone that post false information. The truth is what is important. If the truth is negative, so be it. The proper way to handle any coin is by it's edges. Most collectors learn this early on. With that said, if you don't care about protecting your coins, do what you want. You own them but few true collectors will agree with poor habits. This coin is a matte proof. It sold for half of what it could have. Few collectors cared to own it. Sandon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 On 7/19/2024 at 8:09 AM, ldhair said: It's hard to be positive with someone that post false information. The truth is what is important. If the truth is negative, so be it. The proper way to handle any coin is by it's edges. Most collectors learn this early on. With that said, if you don't care about protecting your coins, do what you want. You own them but few true collectors will agree with poor habits. This coin is a matte proof. It sold for half of what it could have. Few collectors cared to own it. Too bad it had that fingerprint and some other snots, it looks like a very nice cent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
