Any idea on possible grade? Thanks 1 1

[Traghan]

Any help appreciated.

[Sandon]

   If the actual coin looks as grainy and ill-defined as it does in these images, I'd be more worried about its authenticity than its grade.  There are a number of counterfeits of 1915-S Panama-Pacific commemorative half dollars. See for example Counterfeit Detection: 1915-S Panama-Pacific Half Dollar | NGC (ngccoin.com).  I would recommend buying this issue already third-party graded, which would include a verification of its authenticity. 

[Traghan]

That was a concern, it’s through an auction & I was concerned about that as well. Even auction houses sell fakes. I’m thinking you may be right. Thank you

[Traghan]

One last one, what about this one? Or should I only look for slabbed? Thanks

[Sandon]

   I'm not sure the second one is genuine either, and it appears to have some wear and to have been polished or "cleaned". If you're not very familiar with these coins, I recommend buying them in certified holders.

    Unless an auction house is well-established, specializes in numismatic items and, most importantly, guarantees the authenticity of items sold, the fact that the item is being auctioned is meaningless.

[J P M]

I agree with Sandon, I shop for 50 cent commemoratives a lot and these two look a bit off. You are safer with a graded example especially with this year and design.   

Edited Friday at 11:20 AM by J P M

[Traghan]

Thank you guys and I do completely agree. I even searched out graded ones and stacks and bowers had some NGC ones MS around $600 but they still had some of the issues you guys brought up and the pictures didn’t totally match NGC registry pics color or texture. Maybe I’m not familiar enough with the coin as it is a rather limited mintage, but I’d feel safer getting it even graded from a trusted LCS. The prices from stacks and bowers didn’t even match NGC recommendations. I found the same issue with eBay graded ones. I just don’t trust it, & I believe you guys are correct, many people are faking this one. I know I could test it & return it to a place like them, but if I’m going to spend the money, I might as well buy the graded one from a place that can do all that as I buy it. Thank you again for your help. I’m just very disappointed in the market right now. I’m having to test things I never thought I would have to and it’s becoming very frustrating to buy even from reputable sellers sometimes. Thank you guys. If I worked at NGC, just my thoughts, I’d invest in a casing that not only was tamper proof but digitally sealed and a better picture verification system. There’s got to be more we can do to stop all the slab switching I’ve encountered. Thanks guys! Happy holiday weekend 

[imnotaminion]

I'd say MS69 & "CAC". REALLY NICE LOOKING COINAGE

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

My first impression is that the coins in the pictures are counterfeit.

 

Edited Friday at 08:38 PM by The Neophyte Numismatist

[Traghan]

This was the picture from Stacks and bowers MS63 and has the same texture issues you guys talked about and doesn’t truly match the NGC pics

[Traghan]

The texture of the first coin I showed is the same except the color 

[imnotaminion]

On 7/5/2024 at 7:19 AM, J P M said:

I agree with Sandon, I shop for 50 cent commemoratives a lot and these two look a bit off. You are safer with a graded example especially with this year and design.   "J P M"

J P M

What does the year and date have too do with grading? Are you insinuating that a year or date is considered when coins are attributed? I will understand if graders at AnyAll attributing companies considers a coin's design when attributing a coin BC of varying relief heights?

[Sandon]

@imnotaminion--The year and design have nothing to do with grading. The problem is that the Panama-Pacific half dollar has frequently been counterfeited, and obviously one wouldn't want to buy a counterfeit in any grade.

[J P M]

On 7/5/2024 at 9:26 AM, imnotaminion said:

J P M

What does the year and date have too do with grading? Are you insinuating that a year or date is considered when coins are attributed? I will understand if graders at AnyAll attributing companies considers a coin's design when attributing a coin BC of varying relief heights?

 

On 7/5/2024 at 9:57 AM, Sandon said:

@imnotaminion--The year and design have nothing to do with grading. The problem is that the Panama-Pacific half dollar has frequently been counterfeited, and obviously one wouldn't want to buy a counterfeit in any grade.

Sandon explained my concern to your question exactly. 

[Traghan]

You guys are exactly right, but should I trust bidding with Stacks and Bowers? MS64. I really do want one, but I honestly don’t know who to trust anymore & eBay is way out of the question & Heritage slabbbed are 5-6 figures

[Sandon]

 

On 7/5/2024 at 10:53 AM, Traghan said:

should I trust bidding with Stacks and Bowers?

  I have bought many pieces from Stacks Bowers, which is one of the top U.S. numismatic firms, on par with Heritage and the like. Nearly all of the lots they sell are certified by one of the major grading services, and you can check them on the service's certificate verification function, to which they usually provide a link.  They provide full obverse and reverse images of all individual coin lots, unlike their competitors. In my experience, the prices realized including buyer's fees and shipping are usually at or near retail, but from time to time I get a good deal. It's conceivable that someone could consign a coin to them--or any other auction house--that was in a fake grading service holder, but I've never heard of this happening. If a counterfeit coin were in the holder in which a grading service encapsulated it, the grading service's guarantee of authenticity would apply.

   Whenever it's possible, I go to lot viewing and make notes about the coins in which I am interested. It's not possible to evaluate a coin, especially one assigned a mint state grade, fully from any photos. You need to examine it at different angles and magnifications to decide if you agree with the grade and it meets your personal taste.  If I can't view the coins in person, I'll often bid less, assuming the worst based on the photos. At times, I've gotten good deals at coin shows, where I can also examine the coins before buying.

    You're not likely to get a genuine, reasonably graded, attractive MS 64 1915-S "Pan-Pac" half dollar for much less than $1,000. List prices in that grade on four guides I checked range from $1,100 (NGC and CPG) to $1,650 (PCGS), with Coin World at $1,250.  "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics."

[Traghan]

Yeah, I estimated that with them it’d be around $1500 and you’re right, with numismatics there’s definitely no Santa Clause. I can definitely affirm that. But still love it! Thanks again 

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/5/2024 at 9:07 AM, imnotaminion said:

I'd say MS69 & "CAC". REALLY NICE LOOKING COINAGE

I'm not a minion, fine. But continue to read the thread in its entirety. I see more wear on the 2d posted example, but that's irrelevant where the matter of possible "inauthenticity" has reared its ugly thread. There's too much money at stake.

Also, I own the naming rights where the use of the grading term AU-59 is concerned.  It is not officially recognized, so I'll let you slide. CAC is taking things a bit far. No coin is eligible for CAC consideration until it is formally, officially certified as such. The 2d coin has cleared that hurdle. If this coin type appealed to me, that's the coin I would want to acquire. I like the color, it's natural, uncleaned look and greater detail.