Trying To Get a Feel For Grading 1 1

[ButchMcQueen]

Understanding the limitations of trying to grade something without the coin in hand, If I said I thought this coin was an MS65 would you say I'm in the ballpark, or that I'm way off the mark?

thanks in advance!

 

 

[Coinbuf]

Not even in the same city the ballpark is in.

[Coinbuf]

This is what an MS65 Morgan dollar looks like.   The obv/rev photo was taken for me by a professional photographer, the less nice slab shot is one I took.   Can you see why your coin is not even close to MS65?

[ButchMcQueen]

I shot this photo in direct sunlight, I don't know enough to appreciate if that makes the photo more, or less, representative of what the coin actually looks like. Where my eyes seem to really be failing me is in that I really don't see any appreciable wear on this coin. The hair over the upper half of the ear, the eagle's breast, hair above the forehead, I'm not knowledgeable enough to see a lot of wear in these areas. I'm sure it's just that I'm the rankest of amateurs here, but I'm seeing graded coins with more wear than I see on this one grading MS65. I see some scratching on Liberty's cheek, is it an excessive amount? The worst scratching I'm seeing is in the field below the space between the E and P. What would be a more likely grade... something in the AU or even EF range, or am I still too high? I'm sure there are some significant areas of wear and scratching that I'm just not learned enough to see.

 

thanks for your expertise! 

[Coinbuf]

On 6/16/2024 at 5:51 PM, ButchMcQueen said:

I shot this photo in direct sunlight, I don't know enough to appreciate if that makes the photo more, or less, representative of what the coin actually looks like. Where my eyes seem to really be failing me is in that I really don't see any appreciable wear on this coin. The hair over the upper half of the ear, the eagle's breast, hair above the forehead, I'm not knowledgeable enough to see a lot of wear in these areas. I'm sure it's just that I'm the rankest of amateurs here, but I'm seeing graded coins with more wear than I see on this one grading MS65. I see some scratching on Liberty's cheek, is it an excessive amount? The worst scratching I'm seeing is in the field below the space between the E and P. What would be a more likely grade... something in the AU or even EF range, or am I still too high? I'm sure there are some significant areas of wear and scratching that I'm just not learned enough to see.

 

thanks for your expertise! 

Direct sunlight is often not a flattering light for coins.   And grading is far too difficult a subject to cover in a paragraph or two.   But in a nutshell if you cannot tell wear from a weak strike then you are going to struggle.   There are almost always some years/mints for each coin type/series that will have super strong strikes and those with very poor soft strikes.   For Morgan dollars many of the early S mint coins are most often found with very strong strikes while many of the O mint coins are commonly seen with weak strikes.   A weak strike can look like a coin with wear, it is only by rotating the coin under proper lighting that you can determine if there is wear or strike weakness, this of course assumes you can tell the difference.

The only way to learn to grade is to find a local dealer that is willing to spend some time and teach you some basics, or take a grading class like those offered by the ANA at their summer seminars.   Then you need to take that information and look at as many graded coins as you possibly can, comparing your grade to the TPG grade.   Learning to grade takes time and practice, there are no shortcuts.

From what I see in your photo I would grade your 78-S as AU55, but that is grading from these photos and I might have a different opinion from a different set of photos or from an in hand review of the coin.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/16/2024 at 8:51 PM, ButchMcQueen said:

....Where my eyes seem to really be failing me is in that I really don't see any appreciable wear on this coin.

Wear. WEAR!!!  FULL-STOP!  That four-letter word is not even applicable to ANY of the eleven grades that comprise the Mint State series.

Now, what I am going to do is wait, very patiently, for our venerable @VKurtB to GTG on this one.  Not in-person. Not in-hand.  That would be a real treat!

[ButchMcQueen]

Coinbuf, Thanks for taking the time to educate me on this. The difference between wear and a weak strike appears to be something I am going to struggle with until I learn more. Still, considering this quote from PCGS's Tips From The Grading Room, "One of the most difficult nuances in grading high-grade coins is detecting the difference in a weak strike, and light wear.", I suspect I won't be struggling alone. 

[ButchMcQueen]

Henri, Thanks for taking the time to make a new guy feel like an insufficiently_thoughtful_person. Bye 

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/16/2024 at 8:51 PM, ButchMcQueen said:

..... I'm sure it's just that I'm the rankest of amateurs here,....

Not even close!  By universal consensus that honor was bestowed upon me a few years ago...   🤣

[Sandon]

   That your 1878-S Morgan dollar shows no wear, assuming that that is the case, in and of itself would qualify it for no grade better than MS 60, and even that assumes that it has not been "cleaned" or otherwise impaired. Coins made for circulation that have no wear, also known as "uncirculated" or "mint state" coins are numerically graded from 60 to 70. Do not confuse wear with contact marks, hairline scratches, and other abrasions that result from contact with other coins and surfaces and which are found to some extent on all coins manufactured for circulation and especially on larger, heavier coins such as silver dollars. This factor, also known as "surface preservation," is only one of several major factors taken into account by professional graders, others being the quality of a coin's luster, strike, and "eye appeal". These factors are considered together in determining a grade. Each of these factors is at least somewhat subjective, and even highly experienced and respected graders can differ by a point or two. However, your coin, assuming that it is uncirculated--there may be some light high point wear--and that your photos fairly represent it, would likely grade in the MS 61-62 range.

   In terms of surface preservation, although your coin only has a few larger contact marks, it has large areas of nearly continuous abrasion (small marks and scratches) on both the devices and the fields. It is difficult to determine the extent of hairlining without viewing the coin in hand at various angles, but extensive hairlining generally goes along with these sorts of abrasions.

   The coin appears to have dull, impaired luster, with a fairly lifeless look and otherwise below average eye appeal. Some of this may be due to the coin having been imaged in sunlight--a pinpoint light source such as an incandescent or LED bulb is far preferable--but the coin clearly does not have the quality of luster or eye appeal seen on Coinbuf's 1897-S graded MS 65 or anything close to it. The coin is well-struck for a "second reverse" (concave breast, parallel top arrow feather) issue, but that is the only really positive factor that I can see.

   To grade even MS 63 per ANA standards, a coin may only have "slightly impaired" mint luster and must be "rather attractive" overall.  The Official American Numismatic Association Grading Standards for United States Coins (7th ed. 2013) ("ANA Grading Guide") at p. 26. For MS 62, "an impaired or dull luster may be evident.  Clusters of small marks may be present throughout with a few large marks or nicks in prime focal areas. . .. Overall eye appeal is below average."  At MS 61, "mint luster may be diminished or noticeably impaired", and "eye appeal is somewhat unattractive." I strongly encourage you to obtain and study a copy of the ANA Grading Guide, which is obtainable from its publisher at whitman.com and from other numismatic supply houses.

    By way of comparison, here is the PCGS "Trueview" image of an 1878-CC (also a "second reverse" issue) graded MS 62, which appears to have surface preservation and luster that are better than your 1878-S:

   

Edited June 17 by Sandon

[ButchMcQueen]

Sandon, Thanks ever so much for taking the time to shed more light on this subject with a total neophyte. I received my copy of the latest edition of Whitman's ANA Grading Guide on Friday and I've been digging into it pretty hard. So much to learn! I'm attaching another photo of this coin taken under LED light and angled slightly to try and knock back on glare. I think this newer picture does a better job of depicting the overall condition of the coin. To my eye the coin actually has at least a bit more luster than what the picture shows.

I sure do wish I had a local coin dealer I could visit and get some "eyes on the actual coin" perspective (and quit pestering folks on here so much!), but I'm so far out in the boonies the nearest Walmart is over 50 miles away, and my nearest coin dealer is over twice that!

Any comments you might have would be appreciated. 

Butch

 

[powermad5000]

Being 1878 was the first year of strikes on new dies, the 1878's need to be in spectacular condition to get a grade of MS 65. I have seen some of these of this particular year with tons of frost on them and super nice fields that do not even grade as proof like and only have a grade of MS 64. The dollar you posted here is an MS 60 at best. Keep in mind MS 60 just means it shows no wear. MS 60 can have tons of bag marks and contact marks as are normally found on Morgan and Peace dollars. These were minted and put into direct contact with each other in Mint bags of 1000 coins in each bag. And the bags were moved and sometimes "tossed" around. Hard to toss, but what I am saying is not handled with kid gloves if you will. The coins banged into each other and rubbed against each other in these mint bags. You might find one with a great obverse and marked up reverse or vice versa if that coin was lucky enough to be on the outside of the bag and that part of the bag wasn't slammed onto the ground. It is difficult to find these soft silver metal coins without bag marks or contact marks. The one you have posted has very many. Also, the Mint was having its own issues on this first year of getting the coins to strike up right and went through a lot of dies to get it right, hence the many VAM varieties available from this particular year, so for the 1878 you need to look for fantastic looking specimens to get higher grades.

The sunlight is probably better lighting for the photo as it won't allow the lens to "hide" any for those contact marks. I will try to find a photo of my 1878 S you can use as a comparison to why I say this particular year is so difficult to achieve a very high grade on. Hopefully you can see the difference between the "satiny" look and partial remaining frost of the surface of mine to the "rough" surface of your coin.

Edited June 17 by powermad5000

[powermad5000]

Here is another of my 1878's and this one has barely any contact marks yet came back with such a low grade.

[Sandon]

   As all photos have their limitations, whether appearing here, in the ANA Grading Guide, or on PCGS Photograde (www.pcgs.com/photograde), another useful resource, you will have to get to some coin shows or other venues where you can see examples of actual professionally graded coins. I'm fortunate in that there are a number of such shows annually in my area. 

   Your newer set of photos of the 1878-S Morgan dollar suggests some high point "rub" (light wear) that could result in an AU 55-58 grade. See the photos and descriptions for these grades at pp. 288-89 of the ANA grading guide. The high points will have had some of the luster rubbed off and look a dull gray when the coin is slanted in the light. Contact marks on these same areas will look shiny (dark when slanted in the light) as on @powermad5000's 1878-S graded MS 64. That coin has excellent luster and strike, but the contact marks prevented it from receiving a higher grade. Note that even in AU 50 Morgan dollars are supposed to show three-quarters of the mint luster, and some luster is supposed to show even at EF 40. There is no reason to believe that your coin could possibly grade higher than MS 62, and likely not that high.

   Striking weakness (not a factor on your coin) is usually distinguishable from wear because luster will appear on the weak areas. This 1892-O Morgan dollar (NGC graded MS 62) has characteristic striking weakness at the hair over Liberty's ear and the eagle's breast but full luster in those areas and elsewhere:

   

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/16/2024 at 10:01 PM, ButchMcQueen said:

Henri, Thanks for taking the time to make a new guy feel like an insufficiently_thoughtful_person. Bye 

Butch, Henri has his own unique writing style.  An acquired taste.  Kernels of wisdom if you know where to look.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/16/2024 at 11:39 PM, ButchMcQueen said:

I sure do wish I had a local coin dealer I could visit and get some "eyes on the actual coin" perspective (and quit pestering folks on here so much!), but I'm so far out in the boonies the nearest Walmart is over 50 miles away, and my nearest coin dealer is over twice that!Any comments you might have would be appreciated. Butch

Coin shows, local ones (small)...regionals (larger).....national ones (HUGE) like FUN.