“Real” Numismatics and Internet Numismatics Share Almost Nothing in Common 0

[VKurtB]

I’m sure many denizens hereabouts regard the internet as something close to a necessity, FOR THEM, in order to enjoy this hobby and/or conduct transactions. I submit to you that such is a purely voluntary CHOICE, and nothing resembling a necessity at all. As such, it represents either laziness or cheapness. 
 

I have looked up authorized NGC dealers within 100 miles of my home. There are five. Five. Only one has a brick and mortar shop. I clicked on the links here at NGC, including the shop’s website, which is “parked” at GoDaddy and does not even exist. Apparently he exists ONLY in meatspace, and has no perceived need to operate in cyberspace. 
 

Clearly, this site is AWASH in Internet primary or Internet exclusive users. The newbie section alone reveals that. My point is this. If’n ya ain’t at least dabblin’ in meatspace every once in a while, in my opinion, you’re just playin’. The Internet is one poor 🫏 substitute. 
 

I drove, recently, 709 miles each way to Pittsburgh. Next month I will fly 2400 miles round trip to Colorado Springs, for the 2nd time this year. Then in July, I’ll drive 715 miles each way to Orlando. Then NEXT summer, I’ll drive 715 miles to Oklahoma City, after another Orlando round trip. What do I buy online? Almost nothing.

Face it. These are two completely different hobbies, not one.

Edited May 31 by VKurtB

[cobymordet]

On 5/31/2024 at 12:37 PM, VKurtB said:

Face it. These are two completely different hobbies, not one.

Oxford Languages indicates the definition of a "hobby" is: "an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure."  ex: "her hobbies are reading and gardening"

VKurtB, I disagree with your statement above.  It is just one hobby and a million and 1 ways to enjoy it.  I mean no disrespect when I state this, but I consider some of your opinions to be a bit condescending.  I have never met you in person and have only had limited interaction with you on this forum.  I have read many of your posts and responses to other posts.  It is clear that you are well educated and have a thorough knowledge of this "hobby."  You and relatively few others on this forum would be considered true numismatists. 

 

Unfortunately, times have changed, and will continue to do so.  The internet has created an opening for stupidity to grow exponentially.  Instant gratification is a requirement.  There is a significantly larger population of coin hobbyists that are less knowledgeable, less financially capable, and less academically inclined to engage in coin collecting at the same level of a true numismatist.  70% of the visitors to this forum will be 1-and-done or, until their next false-positive coin is unearthed.  For me, locally, there are 3-5 Brick-and-mortar coin shops in the Austin, TX area and those shops are inadequate, have virtually no basic stock, finicky hours, and most importantly, disinterested owners.  I hate the fact that I have limited local availability.  There is a coin show at a VFW with about 20 of the same dealers every three months, none of which live in the Austin area.  I prefer to trip through antique-esque shops and find more interesting coins.  I lived in Maryland for a few years, there was much better availability there and everything is closer, much unlike Texas.    

 

Honestly, I am not sure whether I can even consider myself to be a coin hobbyist.  My father turns 87 this year and has accumulated well over 100,000 coins, in part some from his father.  Although these coins aren't much beyond pocket change and bank rolls, they do encompass nearly a 100 years of accumulation.  Both my father and grandfather are/were hoarders.  Fortunately, they were smart enough to hoard money, at least it has a base value.  As a hoarder, neither my grandfather or father ever took the opportunity to dive into the academia of coin collecting.  At this point in his life, my dad is just trying to sell his coins.  "1964 and any coin that doesn't look normal" was the mantra my dad drilled into my head. That was the extent of my knowledge. I have for decades kept coins I have found interesting and in comparison to what little knowledge I have acquired in the past 3 years, I know less than nothing.  Over the past 3 years I have been helping him collate his accumulation.  Since I know less than nothing, this forum has been my gateway to a vast array of information on coins.

 

[VKurtB]

On 5/31/2024 at 3:30 PM, cobymordet said:

Oxford Languages indicates the definition of a "hobby" is: "an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure."  ex: "her hobbies are reading and gardening"

VKurtB, I disagree with your statement above.  It is just one hobby and a million and 1 ways to enjoy it.  I mean no disrespect when I state this, but I consider some of your opinions to be a bit condescending.  I have never met you in person and have only had limited interaction with you on this forum.  I have read many of your posts and responses to other posts.  It is clear that you are well educated and have a thorough knowledge of this "hobby."  You and relatively few others on this forum would be considered true numismatists. 

 

Unfortunately, times have changed, and will continue to do so.  The internet has created an opening for stupidity to grow exponentially.  Instant gratification is a requirement.  There is a significantly larger population of coin hobbyists that are less knowledgeable, less financially capable, and less academically inclined to engage in coin collecting at the same level of a true numismatist.  70% of the visitors to this forum will be 1-and-done or, until their next false-positive coin is unearthed.  For me, locally, there are 3-5 Brick-and-mortar coin shops in the Austin, TX area and those shops are inadequate, have virtually no basic stock, finicky hours, and most importantly, disinterested owners.  I hate the fact that I have limited local availability.  There is a coin show at a VFW with about 20 of the same dealers every three months, none of which live in the Austin area.  I prefer to trip through antique-esque shops and find more interesting coins.  I lived in Maryland for a few years, there was much better availability there and everything is closer, much unlike Texas.    

 

Honestly, I am not sure whether I can even consider myself to be a coin hobbyist.  My father turns 87 this year and has accumulated well over 100,000 coins, in part some from his father.  Although these coins aren't much beyond pocket change and bank rolls, they do encompass nearly a 100 years of accumulation.  Both my father and grandfather are/were hoarders.  Fortunately, they were smart enough to hoard money, at least it has a base value.  As a hoarder, neither my grandfather or father ever took the opportunity to dive into the academia of coin collecting.  At this point in his life, my dad is just trying to sell his coins.  "1964 and any coin that doesn't look normal" was the mantra my dad drilled into my head. That was the extent of my knowledge. I have for decades kept coins I have found interesting and in comparison to what little knowledge I have acquired in the past 3 years, I know less than nothing.  Over the past 3 years I have been helping him collate his accumulation.  Since I know less than nothing, this forum has been my gateway to a vast array of information on coins.

 

I “get” the 1964 part, even though I do not subscribe to it. But I will never understand the “any coin that doesn’t look normal” part. All that leads to is collecting damaged pieces.

[cobymordet]

On 5/31/2024 at 3:39 PM, VKurtB said:

I “get” the 1964 part, even though I do not subscribe to it. But I will never understand the “any coin that doesn’t look normal” part. All that leads to is collecting damaged pieces.

Yeah, I did not word that correctly, I meant to state any coin that isn't the normal current nickel, dime, penny, quarter sets, like Mercs, Buffalos, Indian heads, foreign, etc. . .

Edited May 31 by cobymordet
greasy fingers

[VKurtB]

On 5/31/2024 at 3:41 PM, cobymordet said:

Yeah, I did not word that correctly, I meant to any coin that isn't the normal current nickel, dime, penny, quarter sets, like Mercs, Buffalos, Indian heads, foreign, etc. . .

Ah yes, there is that - obsolete designs.

[VKurtB]

You should hear the speeches at events and banquets that I hear. Beyond any shadow of a doubt there is a quasi-war going on in the hobby about internet numismatics vs. event attending numismatics. The former head of FUN, and current head of the Central States shows completely tore internet numismatics a new orifice when she received a top ANA award. On the other hand, a past (and summarily fired) ANA Executive Director (Larry Shepherd) gave an impassioned defense of “the new ways” at PAN a couple of weeks ago. Ignore the conflict at your own peril. Feelings are raw and a little angry. The reaction to that recent Thursday dinner speech by Larry was, how do they say it, very cringe. 

Edited May 31 by VKurtB

[Sandon]

    The problem is that to really understand the nuances of examining (and enjoying) coins, you have to look at actual coins, not just images of them or the numbers grading services gave them. Unfortunately, not all of us can travel hundreds of miles to get to a decent coin show or dealership.  I'm fortunate that at present I live close to a few events that I can attend in person. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/31/2024 at 4:55 PM, Sandon said:

    The problem is that to really understand the nuances of examining (and enjoying) coins, you have to look at actual coins, not just images of them or the numbers grading services gave them. Unfortunately, not all of us can travel hundreds of miles to get to a decent coin show or dealership.  I'm fortunate that at present I live close to a few events that I can attend in person. 

For me, “close enough” includes Berlin, Germany. It’s a choice, one I made PRIOR to my retirement from PA legislature service.

Edited May 31 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

I am a "one-and-done," but I have a universally recognized extenuating circumstance:  I collect a series limited to just 16 coins and, due to no fault of my own, I single-handedly did my part to outstrip existing supply. Proof? An outstanding $500, no questions asked reward, as posted on the Coin Marketplace to anyone who can provide a lead on three coins of Interest -- which has gone unanswered for some time.

I leave it to others as to whether I am a numismatist, coin collector, hobbyist, accumulator, hoarder -- or perhaps poseur.  I am the only eye-witness to my collection and the only person who can vouch for its existence and I did it all sitting in a chair at a table with my wife's cellphone in hand.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

What I disagree with is the distinction that one can only be a "real" numismatist by working the show circuit.  Granted, shows are fun and in-person education is always best.  However, there is a wealth of information online and to try to negate that fact is a futile pursuit.  If one is here, they are (at minimum) a mixed-model hobbyist.  Disputing this is also futile.

Why work to alienate any area of numismatics?  Graded or raw; online or in-person...I don't care one bit how another collector enjoys their coins.  I am just glad they do.

[Mike Meenderink]

Sometimes intellectuals can overlook certain societal aspects of their philosophical ramblings due to their inability to understand others and the varied human experience. Science has proven this to doubly true with octogenarian intellectuals. Scientists have described this phenomenon and given it the name Stubbornness Analytus Syndrome. It can be debilitating.

[cobymordet]

On 5/31/2024 at 7:10 PM, Henri Charriere said:

"... -- or perhaps poseur."

...and hear I thought a "poser" was bad enough, but to add a "u" is downright durty!      

[J P M]

I go to shops whenever I can, I do not have a very large budget in retirement. Shopping around is a must, whoever has what I am looking for gets the sale and that is that. Shop dealer's prices are always higher, but you can get a deal if you work at it. The internet allows me to find coins that I would not be able to find without traveling fifty miles or more and spending all my coin money on gas and rooms. Yes, Kurt we come from a different time and there are many new people that do not understand numismatics. I think we have to give them what we know to keep the hobby from falling short. I can be frustrating the internet is a two-way street it helps us and hurts us. We have to be the guardians of the misinformation.  

[ldhair]

I don't feel it's possible to judge someones skills by age, how much they travel or by what they collect. No question, meeting someone in person is best. The words and terms someone uses helps me understand their skills.   

[VKurtB]

On 6/1/2024 at 9:31 AM, ldhair said:

I don't feel it's possible to judge someones skills by age, how much they travel or by what they collect. No question, meeting someone in person is best. The words and terms someone uses helps me understand their skills.   

But what do you use to keep your palm from reflexively coming up to cover your face?

[VKurtB]

On 5/31/2024 at 8:06 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

What I disagree with is the distinction that one can only be a "real" numismatist by working the show circuit.  Granted, shows are fun and in-person education is always best.  However, there is a wealth of information online and to try to negate that fact is a futile pursuit.  If one is here, they are (at minimum) a mixed-model hobbyist.  Disputing this is also futile.

Why work to alienate any area of numismatics?  Graded or raw; online or in-person...I don't care one bit how another collector enjoys their coins.  I am just glad they do.

Shows? What about auctions, estate sales, talks, coin clubs? There is NOT a dichotomy. There are MULTIPLE ways to do numismatics in person. I have only VERY seldom bought any coins of note at a show, per se. Why does seemingly everybody not take into account anything other than a coin show or the Internet? There’s a whole additional WORLD, or several, out there besides a coin show or the Internet. The ANA keeps a database of local coin clubs, even just the ANA member clubs. There are hundreds and hundreds of them. “There’s nothing near me.” Bullsnot! The ANA has a club coordinator that will help you START a club. They’ll provide a mailing list of ANA members near your proposed location.

If fifty miles presents an insurmountable obstacle for you, seriously, maybe you need a cheaper hobby. My wife does cross-stitch. Wait. That’s expensive to do right, too.

Edited June 1 by VKurtB

[J P M]

On 6/1/2024 at 11:53 AM, VKurtB said:

If fifty miles presents an insurmountable obstacle for you, seriously, maybe you need a cheaper hobby.

I did not say that it was an obstacle. I said , 

 

On 6/1/2024 at 8:29 AM, J P M said:

The internet allows me to find coins that I would not be able to find without traveling fifty miles or more and spending all my coin money on gas and rooms.

I also said I go to coin shops whenever I can. 

 

On 6/1/2024 at 11:53 AM, VKurtB said:

“There’s nothing near me.” Bullsnot!

The closest coin club to my location is 77 miles or in New England distance an hour and a half drive. The Coin Club of Greater New Bedford. Founded in 1938 and is one of the oldest in the country. 

[Mike Meenderink]

I hereby move that if Kurts's Gluteus Minimus finally give out and he can no longer travel in luxurious comfort to fabulous destinations and important coin seminars, he is to be immediately euthanized by his wife due to his deplorable condition of his own description. Do I have a second?

Edited June 2 by Mike Meenderink

[World Colonial]

If most people collected as you describe (pre-internet), the collector base would absolutely collapse and the hobby would be on life support, like stamps from what I read.  Your description at scale is primarily viable for the collector who collects the same types of coins they did pre-internet: mostly 20th century US, generic gold, "bargain bin" world coinage, and common US type.  I likely wouldn't own a single coin I own now.

Most people don't have the inclination to do what you describe but even if they do, don't have the money to do it anyway.  I've exchanged posts with you on this before.  To do what you do, I'd have to spend most of my vacation time and all of my coin budget just travelling to shows.  I'm not going to do that, and neither will hardly anyone else.

The rest of it?

The rest of the country doesn't fit your description of eastern Pennsylvania.  There are coin clubs in the metro ATL area, but I've never attended a meeting.  Honestly, what most (US) collectors collect is of no interest to me.  This forum isn't active but on PCGS, the posting volume is something like 100-1 US vs. world.  

Coin shops?  No shop sells what I collect, primary or sideline collections.  Also not interested in driving that far for so long (probably 30 minutes to an hour) in ATL traffic.  (Yes, maybe I need to move.)

Local auctions?  Not aware of any but same theme.

Edited June 2 by World Colonial

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/1/2024 at 11:37 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

I hereby move that if Kurts's Gluteus Minimus finally give out and he can no longer travel in luxurious comfort to fabulous destinations and important coin seminars, he is to be immediately euthanized by his wife due to his deplorable condition of his own description. Do I have a second?

My opinion has never counted.  On the other hand, Kurt has a legion of followers.  I wonder how they feel.  I only want two things for Kurt: don't worry, be happy and  s-l-o-w  down.  No one can outrun the inevitable.  Or as Archie Bunker would put it, You done good, Kurt, you done good!  You've accomplished your mission.

[VKurtB]

On 6/2/2024 at 8:20 AM, World Colonial said:

The rest of the country doesn't fit your description of eastern Pennsylvania.  There are coin clubs in the metro ATL area, but I've never attended a meeting.

Just in the area bounded by I-81 on the west, I-78 on the north, PA100 on the east, and the Maryland border on the south, there are at least 12 active coin clubs, including the “all-star” club, the Red Rose Coin Club of Lancaster, who draws more members at every meeting than the Chicago Coin Club does. Both share an attribute. Both have been the host club several times for ANA conventions. Atlanta has been named the host for February 2025. A key requirement is a highly active club scene. The need for local volunteers is THAT IMPORTANT. 

[VKurtB]

On 6/1/2024 at 10:37 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

if Kurts's Gluteus Minimus finally give out and he can no longer travel in luxurious comfort to fabulous destinations and important coin seminars

Luxurious comfort? Luxurious COMFORT? Only when the wife travels with me, I assure you. When we did our Paris, London, Edinburgh, Inverness, London, Dublin trip, yes, all long flights and all train trips were strictly First Class, or Business Class. But when I travel alone, it’s ALWAYS lowest possible class “steerage”. My back still has pains that haven’t subsided from my winter Newark-Berlin-Newark experience. 

[RWB]

There are advantages and value to be found in alternatives - but some see only their own butt-end failures?

[Henri Charriere]

[Anecdote:  When Albert Einstein was recognized on a flight, he was asked why a world-renowned highly-accalimed physicist such as he was flying second-class?

His dead-pan, matter-of-fact response was:  "Because there is no third-class."]

[FlyingAl]

Interesting opinion. 
 

At the end of the day, it's just that. One opinion. I've managed to do quite well for myself in this hobby with an extreme majority of my participation being online. The major shows I have attended have been nothing short of disappointing themselves - rather, the people that I met up with from meeting on the online side of the hobby made those shows fun. 

All simply my opinion. 

 

 

[RWB]

"Coin Shows" developed from the annual ANA conventions, and the "bourse" area reserved for members to buy and sell coins. This was a logical extension of in-person and mail auctions, which in turn were expansions of casual meetings between collectors of common interest. (The highest interests were in medals, ancient, and foreign - the US coinage was too common and brief for much beyond coppers and colonial.)

FlyingAl describes a further change that evolved from the coin shop bid board once internet availability became extensive. A current difficulty is careful examination of a complete coin is not yet available via photos (or videos; and hampered by edge-obscuring slabs) -- the images do not replace astute visual examination. A temporary solution is to reserve a coin via internet and purchase it in person, but many are too impatient for that option. (Note that dealers will sell via images but never buy via images - does that give collectors a hint?)

Personally, I attend few shows. Aside from the absence of useful research materials, coin shows offer only chance encounters with items a specific collector might want. Advance distribution of want-lists to dealers might help, but the personal security risk is extreme. Large shows become time wasters based on chance encounters with undefined merchandise available within a brief time period. Would it help to group specialty dealers in close proximity -- all FE and Indian cent sellers in a certain block of tables -- maybe; but ask them first.

PS: That brings to mind another coin show option: the "Curmudgeon-Only Coin Show" compete with open Gripe Mikes, "Back in my day" and "Should-a bought that" classes, no slabbed coins, and a good supply of overgraded and thumbed coins.

Edited June 3 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 6/3/2024 at 11:17 AM, RWB said:

"Coin Shows" developed from the annual ANA conventions, and the "bourse" area reserved for members to buy and sell coins. This was a logical extension of in-person and mail auctions, which in turn were expansions of casual meetings between collectors of common interest. (The highest interests were in medals, ancient, and foreign - the US coinage was too common and brief for much beyond coppers and colonial.)

FlyingAl describes a further change that evolved from the coin shop bid board once internet availability became extensive. A current difficulty is careful examination of a complete coin is not yet available via photos (or videos; and hampered by edge-obscuring slabs) -- the images do not replace astute visual examination. A temporary solution is to reserve a coin via internet and purchase it in person, but many are too impatient for that option. (Note that dealers will sell via images but never buy via images - does that give collectors a hint?)

Personally, I attend few shows. Aside from the absence of useful research materials, coin shows offer only chance encounters with items a specific collector might want. Advance distribution of want-lists to dealers might help, but the personal security risk is extreme. Large shows become time wasters based on chance encounters with undefined merchandise available within a brief time period. Would it help to group specialty dealers in close proximity -- all FE and Indian cent sellers in a certain block of tables -- maybe; but ask them first.

PS: That brings to mind another coin show option: the "Curmudgeon-Only Coin Show" compete with open Gripe Mikes, "Back in my day" and "Should-a bought that" classes, no slabbed coins, and a good supply of overgraded and thumbed coins.

I know, right? Heck, you couldn’t even be bothered to show up to collect your Numismatist of the Year award, am I right? Of course, it was such a lengthy trek, northern Virginia to Pittsburgh after all. George Washington did it several times on foot and horseback. He didn’t even have Amtrak’s Capitol Limited service available, but you did.  Hey, I get to ALMOST EVERY major show on this side of the Rockies, but that does NOT MEAN I BUY AT THE BOURSE. I have spent FIVE DAYS each at ANA conventions without ever once visiting the bourse. It’s about the events associated with the show, not the bourse. There is enough there to keep me physically exhausted after evening number one.

By being at ANA shows, I have gotten to see all five 1913 Libnicks together in one holder, all 10 Langbord 1933 DE’s together, the actual submersible that dove the S.S. Central America wreck, along with recovered artifacts, and the multiple Tyrant Collections. But yeah, you’re probably right - nothing interesting. No carbon paper copies of old correspondence, which must be the only things worth looking at. 

Edited June 3 by VKurtB

[RWB]

By reading through various show reports posted by collectors, it appears that the most successful are those who have previously established an understanding of those dealers who often have the kinds/types/series coins the collector prefers, and then attends with a "want list" in hand. That preparation saves time, and seems to produce happier coin collectors. The time (and sometimes money) savings can then be devoted to browsing or munching a 3-day old hot dog.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/3/2024 at 12:17 PM, RWB said:

.... (Note that dealers will sell via images but never buy via images - does that give collectors a hint?)....

Never crossed my mind... your perspicuity on such matters is astonishing!  

[FlyingAl]

I will say the attitude towards online numismatics shown in this thread is probably one of the major reasons why organizations like the ANA have failed at encouraging the younger generations to start coin collecting.