A question on coin grading. 1 1

[ThePhiladelphiaPenny]

Hello. I've spent some time learning abut coin grades/grading, but I have trouble with certain denominations. I have surface-preservation and strike down, but when it comes to luster, I can't for the life of me figure it out on nickels and dimes etc.. Really I have trouble on anything with a silvery color because they catch the light well, no matter the grade! (Or maybe I'm just crazy ) Any help on how to do this properly would be great.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Your question is complex, and will be hard to answer.  Every series has its own considerations and nuances in terms of grading.  For instance nickel is a hard metal that typically has striking issues that could look to be wear .  Likewise, sometimes the design itself leads to striking issues.  

Without knowing the coin in question, I can only direct you here:  https://www.pcgs.com/news/what-makes-difficult-coins-to-grade.  This PCGS article has links to helpful videos on grading and some of the nuances on "hard to grade" coins.

[ThePhiladelphiaPenny]

On 4/17/2024 at 1:19 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Your question is complex, and will be hard to answer.  Every series has its own considerations and nuances in terms of grading.  For instance nickel is a hard metal that typically has striking issues that could look to be wear .  Likewise, sometimes the design itself leads to striking issues.  

Without knowing the coin in question, I can only direct you here:  https://www.pcgs.com/news/what-makes-difficult-coins-to-grade.  This PCGS article has links to helpful videos on grading and some of the nuances on "hard to grade" coins.

Thank you. I apologize for my overly complicated and yet simplistic questions. Still getting used to this forum, and I have so many questions. For me right now, I'm trying to figure out a 1946 nickel I just found. Low grade but I still wanted to practice on it for the future.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Grading is NOT easy.  And... just because you can accurately grade one series does not mean you can accurately grade another.  It takes a lot of time and looking at a LOT of coins in holders.  I am not the best, but I have gotten MUCH better.  There is a grading game on mycollect.com that is fun and will have you grading lots of different coins (just give yourself some grace if you don't do as well as you hoped) 

[Mike Meenderink]

On 4/17/2024 at 10:26 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

 It takes a lot of time and looking at a LOT of coins in holders

yup

[RWB]

Consistent, reliable coin grading is not difficult. (Although nearly everyone else posting message will disagree.) A "grade" is simply a combination of the amount of wear/abrasion on the coin, plus external damage such as bumps, scrapes, scratches and so forth. Both these can be determined using standards accepted long ago, or with degraded versions shown in the ANA Grading guide. (With the exception of Uncirculated coins, where these are not well defined.)

It gets complicated, confusing and largely worthless, when subjective factors such as luster, strike, tarnish, "look" and other uncontrollable conditions get layered on top of, or in between largely objective criteria.

Today's collectors and dealers have largely handed off grading to independent for-profit companies owned by buy-out companies, and thereby given up meaningful control over quality. It is all about the money - nothing else.

[VKurtB]

On 4/17/2024 at 12:26 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Grading is NOT easy.  And... just because you can accurately grade one series does not mean you can accurately grade another.

Amen! This is particularly true of discerning the higher grades, say in the AU into the MS grades. Not everything that looks like wear IS wear.

[VKurtB]

On 4/17/2024 at 3:06 PM, RWB said:

(Although nearly everyone else posting message will disagree.)

Virtually everybody in THE ENTIRE HOBBY DISAGREES WITH RWB on this. 

[ThePhiladelphiaPenny]

On 4/17/2024 at 4:54 PM, VKurtB said:

Virtually everybody in THE ENTIRE HOBBY DISAGREES WITH RWB on this. 

You're probably right, but I like his advice. Thank you both.

 

[powermad5000]

On 4/17/2024 at 12:22 PM, ThePhiladelphiaPenny said:

I apologize for my overly complicated and yet simplistic questions.

No need to apologize. Questions from the simplistic to the complex need answers as they are questions.

One thing I recommend to you is to get a copy of the book titled ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins, 7th Edition.

This book covers most series with photos of each typical grade in the Sheldon Scale (MS 60, AU 50, XF 45, XF 40, etc.). This can help when you are undecided about a specific coin. What cannot be replaced in my opinion, however, is looking at TONS of coins already graded. This takes time. And I agree with @The Neophyte Numismatist that you need to become familiar with the nuances of each specific series of coin to be able to recognize specimens weakly struck which is different from wear and what pieces that are sharply struck and are gem BU. One thing I have used over the years to help me is to compare the coin I am wondering what the grade is to either a known gem BU or a Proof if that is all that there is to go on. Granted proofs are produced differently and should have superior details, but they can be used to refer to the image on the coin and what it is supposed to look like. Sometimes on that comparison it becomes evident the coin in question is a much lower grade than initially thought. I also don't refer to luster in and of itself when determining grade. While high grade coins usually have nice white color on silver coins, I have also seen some Morgans and some Mercury Dimes and some Franklin Halves with heavy blue or black toning that have amazing grades. Grade to me is about the original surface, how pristine and mark and scratch free it is for the MS grades. Once a coin has wear, to me it becomes a little easier to determine grade when observing the typical spots of wear on the highest points of the design.

Hopefully this answer helps some.

[RWB]

On 4/17/2024 at 4:54 PM, VKurtB said:

Virtually everybody in THE ENTIRE HOBBY DISAGREES WITH RWB on this. 

In reality, VKurtB is incorrect. I know many astute collectors who follow my overall description. The difference between them and run-of-the-mill "VKurtB-types" is that these folks don't care about money, profit, greed (at least not in their hobbies), or the circular hype infesting coin collecting. Their holdings include accurate coin and medal grades combined with their personal preferences for other, subjective, factors.

[ThePhiladelphiaPenny]

On 4/17/2024 at 11:39 PM, powermad5000 said:

No need to apologize. Questions from the simplistic to the complex need answers as they are questions.

One thing I recommend to you is to get a copy of the book titled ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins, 7th Edition.

This book covers most series with photos of each typical grade in the Sheldon Scale (MS 60, AU 50, XF 45, XF 40, etc.). This can help when you are undecided about a specific coin. What cannot be replaced in my opinion, however, is looking at TONS of coins already graded. This takes time. And I agree with @The Neophyte Numismatist that you need to become familiar with the nuances of each specific series of coin to be able to recognize specimens weakly struck which is different from wear and what pieces that are sharply struck and are gem BU. One thing I have used over the years to help me is to compare the coin I am wondering what the grade is to either a known gem BU or a Proof if that is all that there is to go on. Granted proofs are produced differently and should have superior details, but they can be used to refer to the image on the coin and what it is supposed to look like. Sometimes on that comparison it becomes evident the coin in question is a much lower grade than initially thought. I also don't refer to luster in and of itself when determining grade. While high grade coins usually have nice white color on silver coins, I have also seen some Morgans and some Mercury Dimes and some Franklin Halves with heavy blue or black toning that have amazing grades. Grade to me is about the original surface, how pristine and mark and scratch free it is for the MS grades. Once a coin has wear, to me it becomes a little easier to determine grade when observing the typical spots of wear on the highest points of the design.

Hopefully this answer helps some.

Thank you @powermad5000, this is very enlightening. I will certainly look at the book you recommended. One more question on coin grading, and this qualifies to high grade coins, and I understand it may be irrelevant in my case as a new collector. But with high grades such as, let's say MS 67, there can only be a certain number of scratches and imperfections, lets throw a number out there and say 5 scratches. Does this apply to the entire coin, or per side obverse/reverse. Also, I understand that in most cases, that may be, or will be, trivial.

[VKurtB]

On 4/18/2024 at 9:26 AM, RWB said:

In reality, VKurtB is incorrect. I know many astute collectors who follow my overall description. The difference between them and run-of-the-mill "VKurtB-types" is that these folks don't care about money, profit, greed (at least not in their hobbies), or the circular hype infesting coin collecting. Their holdings include accurate coin and medal grades combined with their personal preferences for other, subjective, factors.

Face it, Roger. The ANA has now filled at least four classes for Grading (I and II) at Summer Seminar, and your idea of grading will be dealt with and rejected as outdated within the first half hour. It USED TO BE your way, but the hobby has moved on. By the way, in the circulated grades, agreement is huge. It’s the MS range. 

Edited April 18 by VKurtB

[ThePhiladelphiaPenny]

On 4/18/2024 at 12:23 PM, VKurtB said:

Face it, Roger. The ANA has now filled at least four classes for Grading (I and II) at Summer Seminar, and your idea of grading will be dealt with and rejected as outdated within the first half hour. It USED TO BE your way, but the hobby has moved on. By the way, in the circulated grades, agreement is huge. It’s the MS range. 

........... 

[powermad5000]

On 4/18/2024 at 10:51 AM, ThePhiladelphiaPenny said:

I understand it may be irrelevant in my case as a new collector. But with high grades such as, let's say MS 67, there can only be a certain number of scratches and imperfections, lets throw a number out there and say 5 scratches. Does this apply to the entire coin, or per side obverse/reverse. Also, I understand that in most cases, that may be, or will be, trivial.

It is quite relevant. Once a coin has achieved MS status, it is considered as not having any wear. MS is where the number of bag marks, scratches, hits, and other imperfections are scrutinized and counted. And it also depends on the series once again. Take Morgan dollars for example. There are none graded MS 70. There is a few dozen or so graded MS 69. There is a few hundred or so graded at MS 68. For most collectors MS 67 is all they will be able to afford to collect and at that grade level they are fantastic.

MS 66 of any coin will be only a few minor scratches and MS 67 will maybe only have two very minor imperfections or typically only one. MS 68 will probably not have any visible imperfections in the fields or main details with a small scratch hiding somewhere on the coin and literally comes down to the quality of the strike (and I am sure some will say mint luster).

ALL grading has to take into account the entire coin. That is the obverse, reverse, details, fields, and the rim and edge. A coin with a reeded edge with a crushed reed should appropriately get lowered a grade point. Rim dings must be taken into account as coins with significant rim dings or dents in the rim or edge can end up with a Details grade for Rim Damage. When I am self grading coins, I always try to keep in mind all the things that earn a coin a Details grade. Mostly because I try to avoid buying impaired specimens, but it helps me to check all aspects of the coin including the rims and edge. Not an exhaustive list, but a list of the more common issues that get a coin Details graded are whizzed, polished, wheel mark, rim damage, bent, scratched, corrosion, cleaned, spot removed, environmental damage, repaired, tooled, holed, altered color, and less common would be mount removed. Plated and altered surface will get returned in a body bag along with authenticity unverifiable or not genuine (counterfeit).

When self grading any coin, everything is important and everything needs to be taken into consideration.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

In all due respect... The ANA grading standards simply do not matter.  The only grading that matters in the market is NGC and PCGS (and possibly CACG).  Those three are the market makers.  ANA is a good primer, but that's really it.  

Honestly, I love EAC standards for copper... but, they don't own the market either (outside of the club).  However, I would say that if EAC agrees with your commercial grading... you have something VERY PQ. 

Edited April 19 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[VKurtB]

On 4/19/2024 at 11:19 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

In all due respect... The ANA grading standards simply do not matter.  The only grading that matters in the market is NGC and PCGS (and possibly CACG).  Those three are the market makers.  ANA is a good primer, but that's really it.  

Honestly, I love EAC standards for copper... but, they don't own the market either (outside of the club).  However, I would say that if EAC agrees with your commercial grading... you have something VERY PQ. 

Even the ANA, in its grading courses, does not use the so-called ANA Grading standards beyond referring to them in a historical sense and the lower grades. The type of grading taught in the four day course (and the one day or two day courses at conventions) IS MODERN TPGS GRADING. That is just the truth. 

Edited April 19 by VKurtB

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 4/19/2024 at 12:33 PM, VKurtB said:

Even the ANA, in its grading courses, does not use the so-called ANA Grading standards beyond referring to them in a historical sense. The type of grading taught in the four day course IS MODERN TPGS GRADING. That is just the truth. 

This is a very smart approach on the ANA's part IMO.