I am buying this coin convince me not too. I am high bidder and will bid up to $1200.00 My current winning bid is less than half of $1200.00 36hrs till hard close. My assigned grade is private but it's pretty high grade. Mistake? Steal? Break even? lol 1 1

[Mike Meenderink]

[Coinbuf]

I know the seller, I very much doubt it will look like that in hand.

[Zebo]

Mike - too much information!!!   On the bidding of course.

[Mike Meenderink]

@ZeboTransparency  ...if you can pay to play I'm all good with fighting for the coin.....hell it may go for more than I would pay!

Edited March 30 by Mike Meenderink

[Coinbuf]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:07 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

hell it may go for more than I would pay!

That would be a lucky break for you.

[Mike Meenderink]

@Coinbuf what do you think it's worth? I have purchased from this dealer prior and was satisfied with the coins. I'm hoping to get this coin for $650-750.

[Coinbuf]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:15 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

@Coinbuf what do you think it's worth? I have purchased from this dealer prior and was satisfied with the coins. I'm hoping to get this coin for $650-750.

The seller is known to doctor, alter the ebay photos to portray problem coins as better than they are, look at the background the coin is sitting on, way over saturated.   How many of this sellers raw coins that you have purchased in the past have you had graded by NGC or PCGS?   How did the TPG's grades line up with the price you paid?   I would love to see one of this sellers coins both with the ebay auction photos and the photos from NGC or PCGS, please post one or a few if you have them.

I could not even begin to guess the coin's worth from photos that I know are heavily altered, I would need real unaltered photos to make that determination.

[Mike Meenderink]

@CoinbufThis seller has pictures of the coins that are pretty well taken. The seller is Denver Coins Co on Ebay. I have been satisfied with the coins I have received in the past which include some of my registry set quarters and a walking liberty half dollar all graded just as anticipated. Thanks for the heads up though if it is the same seller. You have seen some of these coins as I have posted them in the Recent Aquisition page in the past. I don't buy all my coins online but some I just take a chance on some are losers some are winners. Its just money....lol but so much fun......

Edited March 30 by Mike Meenderink

[Mike Meenderink]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:34 PM, Coinbuf said:

 I would love to see one of this sellers coins both with the ebay auction photos and the photos from NGC or PCGS, please post one or a few if you have them.

If I win this coin, I will do a complete thread that follows the journey of this coin from raw to graded. That would be interesting for people to follow. Good idea. 

[Coinbuf]

Yes Denver Coins, aka (or may still be used) Canyon City Coins, and I think there may have been another name this seller has used in the past on ebay.

[Mike Meenderink]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:59 PM, Coinbuf said:

Yes Denver Coins, aka (or may still be used) Canyon City Coins, and I think there may have been another name this seller has used in the past on ebay.

I may be a bit more conservative now with my high bid ceiling thank you CB

[Henri Charriere]

I have devoted the better part of an hour trying to locate this coin, without success.  I have barraged eBay in the past on their practice of including, in addition to your coin, coins of other denominations, dates, mintmarks -- and other metals, e.g., gold.  No luck. Solely on the strength of Coinbuf's input, I would reconsider the effort.  Too much money is at stake for a coin that hasn't been certified and isn't in-hand. Malheureusement, I do not know if you need this coin, or simply want it. ( I saw quite a few offerings with different dates sporting original, gorgeous mint luster.) My search for Denver Coins, frustratingly included coins minted in Denver!  Do me a giant favor and check two things right now: their written (advertised) return policy (if they have one) + Recent Reviews. Good luck, Mike!

[Sandon]

    I had to click the links several times to see the coin, whose photos were still very small.

    I would be very reluctant to bid on this coin, which superficially appears to be a cameo proof 1878 Liberty Seated quarter, sight-unseen and uncertified on the basis of these photos.  It looks too good to be true, and I am puzzled as to why a legitimate coin dealer would offer such a coin uncertified nowadays. It could be a counterfeit or alteration. Does this seller have a return privilege that would extend to the amount of time it would take to have the coin certified?  

[Mike Meenderink]

On 3/30/2024 at 4:02 PM, Sandon said:

    I had to click the links several times to see the coin, whose photos were still very small.

    I would be very reluctant to bid on this coin, which superficially appears to be a cameo proof 1878 Liberty Seated quarter, sight-unseen and uncertified on the basis of these photos.  It looks too good to be true, and I am puzzled as to why a legitimate coin dealer would offer such a coin uncertified nowadays. It could be a counterfeit or alteration. Does this seller have a return privilege that would extend to the amount of time it would take to have the coin certified?  

Full return policy

[GoldFinger1969]

Mike, you have to shorten your OP subject titles....or I'm gonna wait for the movie version to hit !! 

[Mike Meenderink]

On 3/30/2024 at 4:02 PM, Sandon said:

  It looks too good to be true

Well we will see I'm in it deep...hope for the best I'm confident it's a PF CAM coin and has no issues. I have much larger HD photos ...but you'll have to find the real auction before you can see the real quality of this coin..I may be dumb but Im not stupid.. I may win big or lose but its always a fun gamble.

Edited March 31 by Mike Meenderink

[J P M]

I was just looking at it on the bay and it does look very nice. If it is a fake, it is a real nice one.

[Mike Meenderink]

Im bleeding money 

[Coinbuf]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:46 PM, J P M said:

I was just looking at it on the bay and it does look very nice. If it is a fake, it is a real nice one.

I doubt it's fake, just that the photos are juiced and taken in a way to hide any flaws or issues. 

[Just Bob]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:59 PM, Coinbuf said:

Yes Denver Coins, aka (or may still be used) Canyon City Coins, and I think there may have been another name this seller has used in the past on ebay.

Is this the same guy that juices the pictures of his Morgan’s to the point that they look almost like a painting of a coin?

[Coinbuf]

This quote was from a discussion on the PCGS forum back in Nov of 2021, they were going by the name Canyon City Coins then.   From that discussion:

"Beautiful raw coins - they have a really cool way of taking pictures and have a seemingly unlimited supply of cool silver dollars and other coins - even key dates!
However, I have now received another coin back from grading and once again - came back cleaned...!!
Even their 1921 peace dollars - which are fetching big bucks - have had 2 come back cleaned...! On one coin I saw what I thought were die polishing lines but I guess were hairlines..."

And here we can see just how much they juice the photos, first the PCGS TV then the CC or Denver coin photo, it not just the raw coins they manipulate the images of.

 

[Coinbuf]

On 3/30/2024 at 8:41 PM, Just Bob said:

Is this the same guy that juices the pictures of his Morgan’s to the point that they look almost like a painting of a coin?

See my post below yours.  

[Just Bob]

That’s the guy. The fields on his Morgan’s always look almost black, with that orange streak through them.

[Coinbuf]

One more set of photos, these are also from the same thread that I quoted the text from above.   CC's photo, the buyers photo and the PCGS result.   Bottom line Mike if you have gotten every raw coin you bought from this seller to straight grade at the advertised grade you are either not being honest with us about your results or have been incredibly lucky.

 

Edited March 31 by Coinbuf

[powermad5000]

Mike, I absolutely will not buy coins from this seller. I do believe they called themselves Canyon City Coin before the name change. All of their photos are incredibly juiced just like Auction Kings photos which look the same as these. All of their offerings have that black background with a cameo looking contrast. I can guarantee the coin in hand will not look like it does in the photos.

I located this coin in seconds on an eBay search. Here's the deal. It is listed as 1878 ULTRA DMPL * PRISTINE+ GEM BU. My rule of thumb, the more descriptors used, the more full of BS the listing is. The coin should speak for itself. Here is the other thing. After taking a quick one minute look at the NGC census, there are ZERO graded in DPL, and only 5 graded in PL. The pictured coin is not a proof. It does not have the same sharpness in the hair, or shields on the obverse and reverse to be a proof so you would be buying a non proof with questionable marking or scratches that could be in the blacked out fields and I seriously doubt that the coin in hand would actually have that contrast to get it a PL grade (forget DPL as there are none graded at that designation). So the sellers description is deceiving to begin with. While the overall details seem to put the coin in uncirculated territory, if it is cleaned, think UNC Details and the commensurate discount the coin would end up selling for. An unimpaired MS 60 is listed in the price guide for $400. Your coin in UNC Details would end up selling for low AU or XF pricing if it is graded details so figure around $150-$200 in that case. And you would be out the cost to have it graded. I would only risk the $200 to cover my you know what in worst case scenario, so that is my opinion. If you can, stop bidding and let someone else get it and let it be their problem.

And that is why I buy nothing from that seller.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/30/2024 at 11:49 PM, Just Bob said:

That’s the guy. The fields on his Morgan’s always look almost black, with that orange streak through them.

So this is one of those "Coin Doctors" that Laura S. was always complaining about, I take it ? 

[GoldFinger1969]

Isn't there some numismatic "Better Business Bureau" seal of Good Housekeeping or something.....PNG or ANA or something....that tells people the person abides by a code of ethics ?

I mean...doctoring coins and NOT saying they are....if I tried that with investing/money management, I'd lose my certifications and probably be fined/prosecuted. 

[powermad5000]

On 3/31/2024 at 12:44 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Isn't there some numismatic "Better Business Bureau" seal of Good Housekeeping or something.....PNG or ANA or something....that tells people the person abides by a code of ethics ?

There is not a "code" and there never has been. There have always been unethical sellers and even dealers in the numismatic world.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/31/2024 at 1:45 AM, powermad5000 said:

There is not a "code" and there never has been. There have always been unethical sellers and even dealers in the numismatic world.

Well, this is something where the professional organizations should get off their butts and create something to give buyers confidence that someone is legit.  I guess if there is a very easy/liberal return policy that isn't bad but a seal of approval from an overseer would eliminate unhappy purchases.  Word spreads, especially in on the Internet, Social Media, forum message boards, etc.  If a dealer didn't have the necessary certification it would speak volumes.

Kind of surprised there isn't.  I see it in other fields -- I have money management certifications (CFA, CFP) for instance -- jewelers have their Gemological stuff, etc.

Edited March 31 by GoldFinger1969

[powermad5000]

On 3/31/2024 at 12:57 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, this is something where the professional organizations should get off their butts and create something to give buyers confidence that someone is legit.

NGC, PCGS, ANACS and now CACG provide the confidence that the coins are legit, but as for individual sellers, it is sort of impossible, especially for sellers who might only sell a couple or few coins a year. On eBay, there is feedback, but that can only go so far. The feedback is useful for sellers who consistently provide less than desired quality (such as receiving a coin not shown in the photos you bought from), or from sellers who don't even ship the coin, but for sellers like the one in question, I can only imagine not all the buyers from that seller actually submit their coins so for those who buy the coins off of those juiced up photos, they may only end up keeping them raw and not have the knowledge to check them for defects. Therefore, that seller can get positive feedback but there is actually a disconnect between the feedback and reality of the purchase.