Recommends for starting to collect (Roman coins) 1 1

[Kinlar]

Hey all, I'm brand new to this. Looking to start collecting ancient Roman coins. I have no clue where to even start, any guidance would be much appreciated. 

Edited March 17 by Kinlar

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the NGC chat board.

   Your question would be best answered by those of our members who collect ancient coins, such as @JKK.  (Your topic title might attract more attention from these members if edited to indicate that what you want to start collecting is Roman coins.) 

    As it is always best to "buy the book before the coin", acquiring some of the books mentioned in the following article would likely be the best place to start: https://coinweek.com/ancient-coin-books-a-collectors-reference-library-for-classical-numismatics/.  The series entitled Roman Coins and Their Values by David Sear is especially well known. 

Edited March 17 by Sandon

[JKK]

On 3/16/2024 at 10:29 AM, Kinlar said:

Hey all, I'm brand new to this. Looking to start collecting ancient Roman coins. I have no clue where to even start, any guidance would be much appreciated. 

Okay. Roman coins span eight hundred years or thereabouts and that's not counting the extra thousand years of Byzantines speaking Greek and calling themselves Roman.

What timeframe do you want to collect, and what types?

Do you know much about Roman history and numismatics?

Do you have any of the accepted references, and if not, would you like suggestions?

How's your familiarity with the Greek alphabet? Other alphabets you read?

Are you interested in any other ancients that aren't Roman?

Have you yet bought any, and if so, would you like to learn good methods of attribution?

Do you accept that you aren't going to get rich at this? (Most of the US collecting newbies do not, until they get the Ice Bath of Reality. I'd expect better from even a budding antiquarian.)

The good news for you is that antiquarians have a way of being the most pleasant numismatists and historians you're likely to meet. Those of us who have been at it a while take pride in that. Ask away.

That'll do for now as food for thought.

[Kinlar]

On 3/16/2024 at 11:46 PM, JKK said:

Okay. Roman coins span eight hundred years or thereabouts and that's not counting the extra thousand years of Byzantines speaking Greek and calling themselves Roman.

What timeframe do you want to collect, and what types?

Do you know much about Roman history and numismatics?

Do you have any of the accepted references, and if not, would you like suggestions?

How's your familiarity with the Greek alphabet? Other alphabets you read?

Are you interested in any other ancients that aren't Roman?

Have you yet bought any, and if so, would you like to learn good methods of attribution?

Do you accept that you aren't going to get rich at this? (Most of the US collecting newbies do not, until they get the Ice Bath of Reality. I'd expect better from even a budding antiquarian.)

The good news for you is that antiquarians have a way of being the most pleasant numismatists and historians you're likely to meet. Those of us who have been at it a while take pride in that. Ask away.

That'll do for now as food for thought.

i would like to start with "actual" romans so anything before 476 AD, i know a bit about roman history but next to nothing when it come to numismatics. i have no references, not sure what you mean by that but i would love suggestions. Greek alphabet knowledge is not too well. i would like to begin with roman coins and as i learn see what other cultures interest me. i haven't bought any yet. my goal isn't to get rich i just want to own a piece of history, this is for personal pleasure not monetary 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/17/2024 at 12:23 PM, Kinlar said:

i would like to start with "actual" romans so anything before 476 AD, i know a bit about roman history but next to nothing when it come to numismatics. i have no references, not sure what you mean by that but i would love suggestions. Greek alphabet knowledge is not too well. i would like to begin with roman coins and as i learn see what other cultures interest me. i haven't bought any yet. my goal isn't to get rich i just want to own a piece of history, this is for personal pleasure not monetary 

Are you looking to build a sizeable collection...or just get a few Roman coins ?  

If you decide you want to look at Saints or MSDs, I'll pipe in then.   Until that time, I'll leave you with the foreign/Roman coin experts.  Good Luck, Kinlar ! 

Edited March 17 by GoldFinger1969

[Kinlar]

On 3/17/2024 at 12:42 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Are you looking to build a sizeable collection...or just get a few Roman coins ?  

If you decide you want to look at Saints or MSDs, I'll pipe in then.   Until that time, I'll leave you with the foreign/Roman coin experts.  Good Luck, Kinlar ! 

eventually i would like i to be sizable, figured id start small and let it grown as the interest gains more ground

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/17/2024 at 12:45 PM, Kinlar said:

eventually i would like i to be sizable, figured id start small and let it grown as the interest gains more ground

Reading and LEARNING about the history of the coins can be as much fun as simply opening your wallet and buying. 

I love collecting/buying Saint Double Eagles, but they aren't cheap and I can't buy one every few weeks...or months....and sometimes years.   So I spend lots of time doing lots of researching and reading on threads, forums, books, journals, etc. 

Not as much fun as buying, for sure, but it makes getting the next one that much more enjoyable.  

For sure, spend time reading forum threads here and elswhere that talk about Roman/foreign coins...and get a book or two that matches your experience level so you can learn the basics (or more advanced stuff, if you already have the basics down pat). 

Edited March 17 by GoldFinger1969

[JKK]

On 3/17/2024 at 9:23 AM, Kinlar said:

i would like to start with "actual" romans so anything before 476 AD, i know a bit about roman history but next to nothing when it come to numismatics. i have no references, not sure what you mean by that but i would love suggestions. Greek alphabet knowledge is not too well. i would like to begin with roman coins and as i learn see what other cultures interest me. i haven't bought any yet. my goal isn't to get rich i just want to own a piece of history, this is for personal pleasure not monetary 

I get it about the appeal. I have a museum in my house; it's the size of a typical 3-ring notebook, because that's what it is. It contains coins up to twenty-five centuries old. However, given how many people show up here waving parking lot coins they think represent their early retirement, it's necessary to make clear that the money angle is rarely feasible. Glad we got that out of the way.

As for Romans, "anything before 476" is still a very broad era. I would further divide it:

• Republic (280-27 BCE)
• Suetonian (27 BCE-96 CE)
• Pax Romana (96-192 CE)
• Barracks Era (192-284 CE)
• Fourth Century (284-410 CE)
• Western Downfall (410-476 CE)
• Provincial (roughly the Western Imperial times; this is where the Greek alphabet comes into play, so start studying)

Obviously, the names do not directly correspond to actual eras. They represent eras of numismatic styles. The knowledge applicable to a given coin somewhat transfers to others of that era. Put another way, if you're a stud with Republic denarii, that doesn't mean jack for Barracks Era billon antoniniani. (Get ready to learn a whole new vocabulary. Billon means debased silver; essentially copper with a sprinkling of silver in some form. It's what emperors did when they had spent the treasury broke.)

For the budget collector (and of great use even for people willing to spend a bunch of money for out-of-print references) one begins with Wildwinds. If you really get into it, and are ready to start spending money, begin with Rasiel Suárez's Aorta. Try and snag one for two figures. This is the most concentrated Roman imperial reference available. Have magnification. If you really really love this, or if it's actually less expensive (like right this moment), splurge instead for ERIC II. Unless you're a weightlifter, make sure you own a hand truck to move it around. Also by Ras, this is like Aorta but with color images, more comprehensive listings (a feat, considering Aorta's sheer density of information), easier reading (can get away with lighter mag), and continues until 1453 CE (Aorta stops the Eastern emperors just before Arcadius).

If you love this stuff, you'll end up wanting the Sear references: volumes I-V plus Greek Imperial. Another useful item is the two-volume Coinage & History of the Roman Empire. When you recover from the heart attack you get looking at the price, start looking for a cheaper version. I'd say if you see the pair for <$100, consider pulling the trigger.

The way we typically attribute ancients is by catalog numbers as well as descriptions. I've never seen anyone but me use Aorta catalog numbers, but they exist; same for ERIC II, which is like Aorta after a Hulklike transformation. Sear (S-nnn), Roman Imperial Coinage (RIC x, nnn), Sear Greek Imperial (SGI-nnn), and others exist. You won't have to dig through Wildwinds for long to see such attribution references.

Once you get into this, you'll start to see that there about about five things to be found on a Roman coin of a given size/material/weight/denomination: obverse device, obverse legend, reverse device, reverse legend, and exergue/fields. The exergue is the bottom reverse, typically the home of mint marks, but fields also matter. For example, a ghamma or thelta (you call them gamma and delta, but that's how they are pronounced in demotic Greek) oficina (sub-mint) mark in the field relates more to the exergue than to the reverse device or legend. Learn to look for and quantify those five things, and in combination with denomination, you have an attribution.

All that either gets you excited/motivated and you blew out of here early to go look at Wildwinds, or it scares f-bomb out of you and you no longer want to do this. There isn't usually middle ground. If the former, keep asking. If the latter, I get it. There's a reason antiquarians aren't as common as roll hunters and Morgan junkies.

[Kinlar]

On 3/17/2024 at 1:29 PM, JKK said:

I get it about the appeal. I have a museum in my house; it's the size of a typical 3-ring notebook, because that's what it is. It contains coins up to twenty-five centuries old. However, given how many people show up here waving parking lot coins they think represent their early retirement, it's necessary to make clear that the money angle is rarely feasible. Glad we got that out of the way.

As for Romans, "anything before 476" is still a very broad era. I would further divide it:

• Republic (280-27 BCE)
• Suetonian (27 BCE-96 CE)
• Pax Romana (96-192 CE)
• Barracks Era (192-284 CE)
• Fourth Century (284-410 CE)
• Western Downfall (410-476 CE)
• Provincial (roughly the Western Imperial times; this is where the Greek alphabet comes into play, so start studying)

Obviously, the names do not directly correspond to actual eras. They represent eras of numismatic styles. The knowledge applicable to a given coin somewhat transfers to others of that era. Put another way, if you're a stud with Republic denarii, that doesn't mean jack for Barracks Era billon antoniniani. (Get ready to learn a whole new vocabulary. Billon means debased silver; essentially copper with a sprinkling of silver in some form. It's what emperors did when they had spent the treasury broke.)

For the budget collector (and of great use even for people willing to spend a bunch of money for out-of-print references) one begins with Wildwinds. If you really get into it, and are ready to start spending money, begin with Rasiel Suárez's Aorta. Try and snag one for two figures. This is the most concentrated Roman imperial reference available. Have magnification. If you really really love this, or if it's actually less expensive (like right this moment), splurge instead for ERIC II. Unless you're a weightlifter, make sure you own a hand truck to move it around. Also by Ras, this is like Aorta but with color images, more comprehensive listings (a feat, considering Aorta's sheer density of information), easier reading (can get away with lighter mag), and continues until 1453 CE (Aorta stops the Eastern emperors just before Arcadius).

If you love this stuff, you'll end up wanting the Sear references: volumes I-V plus Greek Imperial. Another useful item is the two-volume Coinage & History of the Roman Empire. When you recover from the heart attack you get looking at the price, start looking for a cheaper version. I'd say if you see the pair for <$100, consider pulling the trigger.

The way we typically attribute ancients is by catalog numbers as well as descriptions. I've never seen anyone but me use Aorta catalog numbers, but they exist; same for ERIC II, which is like Aorta after a Hulklike transformation. Sear (S-nnn), Roman Imperial Coinage (RIC x, nnn), Sear Greek Imperial (SGI-nnn), and others exist. You won't have to dig through Wildwinds for long to see such attribution references.

Once you get into this, you'll start to see that there about about five things to be found on a Roman coin of a given size/material/weight/denomination: obverse device, obverse legend, reverse device, reverse legend, and exergue/fields. The exergue is the bottom reverse, typically the home of mint marks, but fields also matter. For example, a ghamma or thelta (you call them gamma and delta, but that's how they are pronounced in demotic Greek) oficina (sub-mint) mark in the field relates more to the exergue than to the reverse device or legend. Learn to look for and quantify those five things, and in combination with denomination, you have an attribution.

All that either gets you excited/motivated and you blew out of here early to go look at Wildwinds, or it scares f-bomb out of you and you no longer want to do this. There isn't usually middle ground. If the former, keep asking. If the latter, I get it. There's a reason antiquarians aren't as common as roll hunters and Morgan junkies.

i wont lie that is extremely intimidating but im willing to do some learning. small steps of course 

[JKK]

In case you want to know what the real payoff is, I'll tell you. It's when someone shows you a badly worn ancient coin where you can barely read the exergue and about half the obverse legend, plus two letters of a reverse legend, and within ten minutes you tell someone exactly what the coin said before that detail was lost. With confidence. They might ask you: "What the f-bomb did you do? Summon a demon?" And you'll just smile.

[JKK]

On 3/17/2024 at 10:44 AM, Kinlar said:

i wont lie that is extremely intimidating but im willing to do some learning. small steps of course 

Small steps are wise; then try and start with one era or two. Cheapest are bronzes from 192-410 CE; figure to spend $8-15 depending on condition. Try and look them up on Wildwinds. If you are confused, post them here and ask for help. Adhere to the posting guidelines: weight and diameter, sharp cropped photos of both sides, properly rotated.

A word on posting pictures and supporting info: Some people here are nice about omitting or skipping some of those details; I am cruel about it, and will simply ignore the post even if I could still answer the question. To me, it's basic respect to present the coin such that it makes helping you as easy as possible; do so, and I'll spend a lot of time giving you hints so you can run back to WW and see what you learn.

(Look at this forum any day for a bunch of examples of how to do it wrong. I find it incredible that someone would waltz in, want help, but refuse to participate in the help. It's like the Prince's car's stuck and two people show up to assist but need help pushing, and the Prince refuses because the Prince is entitled to the help of lower minions. Truth told, I block them, to remind myself never to bother helping them. Don't be like them. I can deal with lack of knowledge, but willful/lazy disrespect is another story. We can tell when people are at least trying.)

When you get sick to death of Constantine and Constantius, you'll know you've done a pretty deep dive on that era. The knowledge will somewhat transfer to silver and billon coinage as well, such as Diocletian's silver-washed folles.

[powermad5000]

On 3/17/2024 at 11:23 AM, Kinlar said:

i just want to own a piece of history, this is for personal pleasure not monetary

If I may interject here, I would take the advice of JKK hands down, but I would also like to add being where you are at in your collecting of these, that I would research what eras and figures you are looking for depicted on the coins and then buying them already certified. It is very difficult to buy these raw and know for sure exactly what you are buying. That takes a significant amount of knowledge to do so buying them already certified would eliminate some of the guess work for you.

Edited March 17 by powermad5000

[JKK]

On 3/17/2024 at 1:08 PM, powermad5000 said:

If I may interject here, I would take the advice of JKK hands down, but I would also like to add being where you are at in your collecting of these, that I would research what eras and figures you are looking for depicted on the coins and then buying them already certified. It is very difficult to buy these raw and know for sure exactly what you are buying. That takes a significant amount of knowledge to do so buying them already certified would eliminate some of the guess work for you.

The issue there is that for the least expensive/learning items--late Imperial bronzes from AE2-AE4--certified examples that are no more expensive than the $8-15 for which one can normally buy them would be quite elusive. You'd probably end up coughing up $40-50 for a coin that couldn't be worth $40 no matter what shape it was in. For that cost, the OP could obtain several pieces and start the attribution learning curve. Which would be needed in any case, because when you look at a slabbed ancient, you often don't have a catalog number or any full description of the text. What good is it to pay that much for what isn't even a complete attribution?

So if the OP were to go that route, it probably means spending triple and obtaining in return only a pretty piece of plastic plus at least the emperor, a grade, and rough era--information that's just the beginning of proper attribution, and would be available from reputable sellers anyway. I can't see that as worth $40 extra. The emperor is easy enough to discern from a halfway readable obverse legend. The era, obviously, is tethered to the emperor (who might in fact be an empress). The best hope would be that someone screwed up and sent it in, or spent too much for the slab, and has decided to bite the heavy loss bullet and sell it for what it's really worth rather than what they paid. That's a lot of dumbth to hope for.

If the OP were into aurei, or something else commonly faked, that'd be different. Even for spendy silver, particularly of rare emperors, it would make sense to go the slab route. But the biggest takeaway there is to buy from reputable sellers, of which I can recommend several with whom I do not hesitate to spend money. And I have never yet spent my own money on a slabbed ancient. I probably never will.