Need Help Identifying - Sept. Severus Denarius (Draped & Cuirrased) 1 1

[Ty Gemberling]

Hi, I need some help identifying this coin. I just got it back from NGC, but can not find any others like it to help identify the reference #.  The coin is a Sept. Severus denarius, and it says draped & cuirrased obverse, with Mars advancing on the reverse. Can anyone help me identify this please?  

[Henri Charriere]

Hi Ty!    Welcome to the Forum!

I am unable to assist you with identification, but am sure someone will be along shortly to help you.  You have come to the right place. Please be patient.

[Ty Gemberling]

Thank you Henri!

[cobymordet]

Hi Ty, I found (what I think to be) a match to your coin on ebay.  As I was searching, I found a variety of coins that seemed quite similar, as though this coin was a part of some sort of series of coins.  I don't collect ancients so I am not sure what information exactly you are seeking about the coin?

 

[Ty Gemberling]

Thank you for sending cobymorbet, but unfortunately that is not the same example. I found plenty of Sept. Severus with the Mars reverse, but the obverse is incorrect. The obverse needs to have an older bearded Septimius that is “draped and cuirrased.”  I attached a picture of what a cuirass is. Thanks again for sending/checking!

 

Ty G. 

[Henri Charriere]

[For the benefit of those who spent a restless night mulling this over, I have learned three things about this topic and coin:

1.  Cuirass is pronounced:  kwuh-RAS, with the emphasis on the RAS.

2.  A cuirass is a piece of defensive "armor" which, covers the body from neck to wrist, breastplate and backplate, and was originally made from leather.

3.  The correct spelling (incorrectly spelt on the label) is cuirassed.  Only one 'r," two "s's.]

To Ty, the OP:  To my knowledge, every World coin has what is known as a "catalog number."  As NGC Ancients certified your coin, I would contact them via the "Ask NGC/NCS" topic which is featured on the page listing the various Forums, or write NGC c/o Customer Service, or try their phone line listed on their main page.  I wish you the best of luck. The certification number is very important as a reference; have your slab in hand whether you call or write.  Best of luck to you!

Edited March 5 by Henri Charriere
Add added info.

[Fenntucky Mike]

Have you tried searching wildwinds? 

https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/septimius_severus/i.html

[JKK]

I think part of the problem is that you're believing the slab without question. I am not sure that is merited.

I checked Aorta for draped, cuirassed bust right; that's obverse type 8) for SS's denarii. None are listed for him. Aorta isn't 100% comprehensive, just about 99.5%. All his denarii are laureate bust L (type 2; obviously not this coin) or laureate bust R, type 3) (the overwhelming majority, as in over 99%). Reverse type is 110), looks like Mars advancing right with spear and trophy. I have more faith in that ID.

If it were my coin, first I'd blow up the actual coin images in addition to showing the slab. Then I'd get in WW and look for his AR denarii, show thumbnails, to find one that looked like a match. BORTE: bust, obverse legend, reverse legend, reverse type, and exergue. Five parameters to full attribution.

[Ty Gemberling]

On 3/5/2024 at 6:56 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Have you tried searching wildwinds? 

https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/septimius_severus/i.html

Thank you Mike!  I use this site each night when I list my items on eBay.  I search here first, then online.  

[Ty Gemberling]

On 3/4/2024 at 8:03 PM, Henri Charriere said:

[For the benefit of those who spent a restless night mulling this over, I have learned three things about this topic and coin:

1.  Cuirass is pronounced:  kwuh-RAS, with the emphasis on the RAS.

2.  A cuirass is a piece of defensive "armor" which, covers the body from neck to wrist, breastplate and backplate, and was originally made from leather.

3.  The correct spelling (incorrectly spelt on the label) is cuirassed.  Only one 'r," two "s's.]

To Ty, the OP:  To my knowledge, every World coin has what is known as a "catalog number."  As NGC Ancients certified your coin, I would contact them via the "Ask NGC/NCS" topic which is featured on the page listing the various Forums, or write NGC c/o Customer Service, or try their phone line listed on their main page.  I wish you the best of luck. The certification number is very important as a reference; have your slab in hand whether you call or write.  Best of luck to you!

Thank you Henri!  And thank you for adding to my question to NGC.  We will see if they answer???

[Ty Gemberling]

On 3/5/2024 at 10:43 AM, JKK said:

I think part of the problem is that you're believing the slab without question. I am not sure that is merited.

I checked Aorta for draped, cuirassed bust right; that's obverse type 8) for SS's denarii. None are listed for him. Aorta isn't 100% comprehensive, just about 99.5%. All his denarii are laureate bust L (type 2; obviously not this coin) or laureate bust R, type 3) (the overwhelming majority, as in over 99%). Reverse type is 110), looks like Mars advancing right with spear and trophy. I have more faith in that ID.

If it were my coin, first I'd blow up the actual coin images in addition to showing the slab. Then I'd get in WW and look for his AR denarii, show thumbnails, to find one that looked like a match. BORTE: bust, obverse legend, reverse legend, reverse type, and exergue. Five parameters to full attribution.

Thank you JKK!  I have found the answer I needed. I will be posting what I found out.  

[Ty Gemberling]

Hi everyone!  I have some exciting news!!!  Please see the emails below from WildWinds.  I had reached out to them, and below were their responses.  I am working with Dane on getting pictures to them of just the coin so they can add it to the website.  Pretty Cool!!!  Question is, what's the value now??  (I am not very concerned about the price, but when I do go to sell it, I will hopefully have an idea of what it is worth)

 

"Just found the BMC page with your coin type on it:
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_1924-0107-9
It cites RIC IV, 60 but that is only the general type,
listed only as laureate head right.
It also cites "RE5" (which is more commonly known as
BMCRE), vol.V: Pertinax to Elagabalus (113, p.39) but I
don't have that volume, I only have vols. I, II, III,
and VI.
The cited article "Mattingly & Salisbury 1924 / A find
of Roman coins from Plevna in Bulgaria (210-238)" was
in Numismatic Chronicle 1924 and refers to this exact
same BMC coin. In the summary list of Cohen numbers in
that large hoard on p. 212 in that Num. Chronicle, it
has "396 var (bust draped)". Mattingly apparently did
not attach any special significance to this coin, there
is - in contrast to the coins of Philip I & II in the
hoard - neither a detailled description of it, nor an
image of it on the plates.
So it is, as I wrote before, a very rare coin with only
a single other one known. I also checked
CoinArchivesPro with auctions going back to the mid
1990s, but there were none on there.
So now you can share your new knowledge with the NGC
chat board members :-)"  From WildWinds

"The obverse legend is L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP V (the
last P has a split seriph like /\ which makes it look
like an X abd the V has a flat bottom), and the reverse
legend is PM TR P III COS II PP which would normally
make it RIC 60; RSC 396, but yours is laureate, draped
and cuirassed (you can see the ||| lines of the cuirass
at his shoulder), so it is BMC 1924,0107.9.
It's odd that the RIC authors did not spot this in the
British Museum. From the BMC number, it was obviously
acquired in 1924 and RIC IV was written 12 years later.
In any case, it's a rare baby."  From WildWinds

[Just Bob]

Well done! Here is a banana dance, just for you 

I love it when one of our members finds a true rarity.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/7/2024 at 1:59 PM, Ty Gemberling said:

Hi everyone!  I have some exciting news!!!  Please see the emails below from WildWinds.  I had reached out to them, and below were their responses.  I am working with Dane on getting pictures to them of just the coin so they can add it to the website.  Pretty Cool!!!  Question is, what's the value now??  (I am not very concerned about the price, but when I do go to sell it, I will hopefully have an idea of what it is worth)

 

"Just found the BMC page with your coin type on it:
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_1924-0107-9
It cites RIC IV, 60 but that is only the general type,
listed only as laureate head right.
It also cites "RE5" (which is more commonly known as
BMCRE), vol.V: Pertinax to Elagabalus (113, p.39) but I
don't have that volume, I only have vols. I, II, III,
and VI.
The cited article "Mattingly & Salisbury 1924 / A find
of Roman coins from Plevna in Bulgaria (210-238)" was
in Numismatic Chronicle 1924 and refers to this exact
same BMC coin. In the summary list of Cohen numbers in
that large hoard on p. 212 in that Num. Chronicle, it
has "396 var (bust draped)". Mattingly apparently did
not attach any special significance to this coin, there
is - in contrast to the coins of Philip I & II in the
hoard - neither a detailled description of it, nor an
image of it on the plates.
So it is, as I wrote before, a very rare coin with only
a single other one known. I also checked
CoinArchivesPro with auctions going back to the mid
1990s, but there were none on there.
So now you can share your new knowledge with the NGC
chat board members :-)"  From WildWinds

"The obverse legend is L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP V (the
last P has a split seriph like /\ which makes it look
like an X abd the V has a flat bottom), and the reverse
legend is PM TR P III COS II PP which would normally
make it RIC 60; RSC 396, but yours is laureate, draped
and cuirassed (you can see the ||| lines of the cuirass
at his shoulder), so it is BMC 1924,0107.9.
It's odd that the RIC authors did not spot this in the
British Museum. From the BMC number, it was obviously
acquired in 1924 and RIC IV was written 12 years later.
In any case, it's a rare baby."  From WildWinds

Awesome, congrats. 

I have no idea what the value might be for the coin but do have one question for you. How did you come into possession of the coin? Did you cherry pick it, got lucky? Congratulations again. 

[Henri Charriere]

Your inquiry was off to a sluggish start, but it was Sunday -- and to be expected.  I am very happy the Forum came thru for you, and so quickly!

Quick question...

Every book nowadays has an International Standard Book Number, or ISBN.

My French gold rooster series has two catalog numbers: KM: 857 and GAD: 1064 (1899-1906) and GAD: 1064a (1907-1914).

What is the universally recognized letter or letter/number combination used to identify the specific coin you have? 

[Ty Gemberling]

On 3/7/2024 at 4:56 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Awesome, congrats. 

I have no idea what the value might be for the coin but do have one question for you. How did you come into possession of the coin? Did you cherry pick it, got lucky? Congratulations again. 

Thanks Mike!  I bought a large ancients collection over the course of a year.  I sent all the ones in that he paid a higher amount for and lucked out.  I knew I could not find it in WildWinds, but I did not expect this to be so rare.

[Ty Gemberling]

On 3/7/2024 at 9:03 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Your inquiry was off to a sluggish start, but it was Sunday -- and to be expected.  I am very happy the Forum came thru for you, and so quickly!

Quick question...

Every book nowadays has an International Standard Book Number, or ISBN.

My French gold rooster series has two catalog numbers: KM: 857 and GAD: 1064 (1899-1906) and GAD: 1064a (1907-1914).

What is the universally recognized letter or letter/number combination used to identify the specific coin you have? 

Thanks Henri!  I am really surprised with how rare this piece is, or uncommon.  Dane from WildWinds.com said this below.

"BMC 1924,0107.9.
It's odd that the RIC authors did not spot this in the
British Museum. From the BMC number, it was obviously
acquired in 1924 and RIC IV was written 12 years later."

So the BMC # is British Museum number.  The C may stand for catalog, I am not sure.

[Ty Gemberling]

Hi everyone!  I figured I would post a few closeup images of this coin, since not many are out there.  I also want to thank you all and Wildwinds.com for everything.  A big thank you!!!  Dane was a HUGE help.  It if were not for him, I am not sure how long this would have went unanswered.  For everyone out there that uses Wildwinds.com, all of the effort that goes into it are unpaid.  The website costs money to keep it up and going.  So I plan to donate to them for the assistance and please feel free to do the same if or if not, you have used them!  Link below.  

Ty Gemberling

 

Donate to Wildwinds.com (via PayPal link)