Errorists Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) This NGC MS68 Philadelphia Bicentennial Quarter or the MS69 Philadelphia double broadstruck Bicentennial Quarter? Edited February 13 by Errorists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 You're trying to compare two coins that appeal to two largely different groups of collectors, those who try to obtain coins with the highest awarded numerical grades for their registry sets and those who collect mint errors. (The NGC Registry doesn't even allow coins attributed as mint errors.) The NGC Price Guide has no price for a MS 68 graded 1976 clad Bicentennial quarter, while the PCGS Price Guide lists it at $4,500. Each error coin is essentially unique and commands its own price, so you can't compare this particular coin with the certified populations of pieces graded "MS 68." You could check auction records for each of these coins and determine what each has actually realized at any public sale. Which one is "more rare and valuable" is inherently a matter for conjecture. GoldFinger1969 and zadok 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 (edited) On 2/13/2024 at 12:24 PM, Sandon said: You're trying to compare two coins that appeal to two largely different groups of collectors, those who try to obtain coins with the highest awarded numerical grades for their registry sets and those who collect mint errors. (The NGC Registry doesn't even allow coins attributed as mint errors.) The NGC Price Guide has no price for a MS 68 graded 1976 clad Bicentennial quarter, while the PCGS Price Guide lists it at $4,500. Each error coin is essentially unique and commands its own price, so you can't compare this particular coin with the certified populations of pieces graded "MS 68." You could check auction records for each of these coins and determine what each has actually realized at any public sale. Which one is "more rare and valuable" is inherently a matter for conjecture. I collect both so? And which one is more rare? Edited February 13 by Errorists Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Rare is hard to say, what do you consider rare means? How many are out there? We have talked about rarity, and no one has the same answer. LoL Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 On 2/13/2024 at 11:48 AM, Errorists said: This NGC MS68 Philadelphia Bicentennial Quarter or the MS69 Philadelphia double broadstruck Bicentennial Quarter? A broadstruck coin is rarer than pocket change; however, there are more crows who pay a lot for shiny things than buzzards for squished things. GoldFinger1969 and Henri Charriere 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 On 2/13/2024 at 2:01 PM, J P M said: Rare is hard to say, what do you consider rare means? How many are out there? We have talked about rarity, and no one has the same answer. LoL Yeah least in numbers out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 On 2/13/2024 at 3:01 PM, RWB said: A broadstruck coin is rarer than pocket change; however, there are more crows who pay a lot for shiny things than buzzards for squished things. AH! It's more shiny and squished.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Let's assume I am uninformed, unenlightened and uneducated -- which may not be far off the mark. According to what VKurtB has said on prior occasions, the chances an MS-68 bicentennial quarter, or for that matter, any coin that is minted for circulation, literally falls off the press presumably striking other coins, and emerges relatively unscathed, at a lofty grade, is rare. That a TPGS certified it and deemed to value it at $4500 suggests demand and scarcity to some extent. Granted, not all such coins have been found and/or submitted, but the passage of years preceding and during the advent of formal grading militates notably in its favor. On the other hand, speaking strictly for myself [and I am irredeemably biased against unsightly, grossly damaged, deformed coins, period] realistically speaking, the broadstruck coin has lost its face value and its visuals are such that its only value to numismatists is its effortless ability to exhibit best the worst to be found in the hobby as an invaluable teaching tool. If I were offered $5000 to take possession of one, I would graciously decline. Parting shot: It would make a wonderful addition to a Ripley's Believe It Or Not display or a Coney Island sideshow of freaks. Nothing I have said should in any way reflect on the good name, character and personal taste of the OP who has demonstrated an all-consuming affinity for these tchotchkes. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 On 2/13/2024 at 4:04 PM, Henri Charriere said: Let's assume I am uninformed, unenlightened and uneducated -- which may not be far off the mark. According to what VKurtB has said on prior occasions, the chances an MS-68 bicentennial quarter, or for that matter, any coin that is minted for circulation, literally falls off the press presumably striking other coins, and emerges relatively unscathed, at a lofty grade, is rare. That a TPGS certified it and deemed to value it at $4500 suggests demand and scarcity to some extent. Granted, not all such coins have been found and/or submitted, but the passage of years preceding and during the advent of formal grading militates notably in its favor. On the other hand, speaking strictly for myself [and I am irredeemably biased against unsightly, grossly damaged, deformed coins, period] realistically speaking, the broadstruck coin has lost its face value and its visuals are such that its only value to numismatists is its effortless ability to exhibit best the worst to be found in the hobby as an invaluable teaching tool. If I were offered $5000 to take possession of one, I would graciously decline. Parting shot: It would make a wonderful addition to a Ripley's Believe It Or Not display or a Coney Island sideshow of freaks. Nothing I have said should in any way reflect on the good name, character and personal taste of the OP who has demonstrated an all-consuming affinity for these tchotchkes. So which one is more rare? GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 On 2/13/2024 at 5:16 PM, Errorists said: So which one is more rare? The answer to that question will depend on demand. Have you any idea how many broadstuck bicentennial quarters were minted? GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 The broadstrike is technically more rare, as it is "unique." This does not mean that you will not see some that may look very similar. From a condition standpoint, it is at parity with others on the market. This means that unless you wanted a broadstrike to looks exactly like the one you are showing, many more can be had that are similar (but not exact). The MS68 is a conditional rarity. Minted for two years, the 1976 quarters is one of the most common coins ever minted. However, you could not easily find another in this condition without hefty premiums. There is nothing "similar" to be had at lesser prices without sacrificing quality (a tactic that could also be used on the broadstrike) As @RWB stated, there are more collectors of conditional rarities than there are broadstrikes. The registry drives the demand. I collect half cents... there are more 1893-S Morgan Dollars slabbed than half cents in existence today. However, the Morgan Dollar is much more expensive - why? Demand! Henri Charriere and GoldFinger1969 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 On 2/13/2024 at 4:31 PM, Henri Charriere said: The answer to that question will depend on demand. Have you any idea how many broadstuck bicentennial quarters were minted? Double struck ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 On 2/13/2024 at 4:59 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: The broadstrike is technically more rare, as it is "unique." This does not mean that you will not see some that may look very similar. From a condition standpoint, it is at parity with others on the market. This means that unless you wanted a broadstrike to looks exactly like the one you are showing, many more can be had that are similar (but not exact). The MS68 is a conditional rarity. Minted for two years, the 1976 quarters is one of the most common coins ever minted. However, you could not easily find another in this condition without hefty premiums. There is nothing "similar" to be had at lesser prices without sacrificing quality (a tactic that could also be used on the broadstrike) As @RWB stated, there are more collectors of conditional rarities than there are broadstrikes. The registry drives the demand. I collect half cents... there are more 1893-S Morgan Dollars slabbed than half cents in existence today. However, the Morgan Dollar is much more expensive - why? Demand! Broadstrikes come in conditional rarity to. This double broadstruck Bicentennial quarter could easily be a MS-69 or MS-70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 On 2/13/2024 at 6:35 PM, Errorists said: This double broadstruck Bicentennial quarter could easily be a MS-69 or MS-70. I am sorry, but the grades above are not accurate. Besides, those registry collectors that drive demand will more likely want a perfect type example over the error. I am not saying there is no market for your broadstrike - there IS. But you are asking what is more rare, and what is more valuable. The broadstrike is technically more rare, and the MS68 is more valuable. Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 On 2/13/2024 at 6:08 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: I am sorry, but the grades above are not accurate. Besides, those registry collectors that drive demand will more likely want a perfect type example over the error. I am not saying there is no market for your broadstrike - there IS. But you are asking what is more rare, and what is more valuable. The broadstrike is technically more rare, and the MS68 is more valuable. So would the MS69 P double broadstruck Bicentennial quarter be more valuable then the MS68 P Bicentennial quarter givin its condition rarity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 The PCGS price guide, relying on a member's comment upthread, lists a price of $4500 for the MS-68 example. Whatever the reason, there is a gap in their population report for that year. There are 10 certified such coins listed on the NGC census. (There are a few finer examples listed in the bicentennial silver series. Malhereusement, there is no way to gauge demand without an exhaustive canvass of PCGS Set Registries and it appears -- call it bashing if you wish, it is no longer user friendly. (I detest user names and passwords and now a verification code sent by email or text is required. Can mugshots and fingerprinting be far behind?) But I digress. There are nearly a dozen such graded coins out there and I am inclined to accept one member's opinion that broadstrucks, double broadstucks (and others festooned with all manner of metal fragments) are all unique in their own way. Granted. To cut to the chase, I am going to strongly forbid you to acquire this type of coinage casualty. A graded example is a sure thing. It will remain in quantifiable demand. The same cannot be said for your genetic mutation. What will you do when you acquire one and, come time to sell, you are met with sour looks, lack of interest, disparaging comments or outright refusals to buy. Worse, how will your heirs feel? If you have the relic, by all means hold on to it, but if you haven't and wish to acquire it, don''t until such time as reliable information regarding valid demand becomes available. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 On 2/13/2024 at 6:49 PM, Henri Charriere said: The PCGS price guide, relying on a member's comment upthread, lists a price of $4500 for the MS-68 example. Whatever the reason, there is a gap in their population report for that year. There are 10 certified such coins listed on the NGC census. (There are a few finer examples listed in the bicentennial silver series. Malhereusement, there is no way to gauge demand without an exhaustive canvass of PCGS Set Registries and it appears -- call it bashing if you wish, it is no longer user friendly. (I detest user names and passwords and now a verification code sent by email or text is required. Can mugshots and fingerprinting be far behind?) But I digress. There are nearly a dozen such graded coins out there and I am inclined to accept one member's opinion that broadstrucks, double broadstucks (and others festooned with all manner of metal fragments) are all unique in their own way. Granted. To cut to the chase, I am going to strongly forbid you to acquire this type of coinage casualty. A graded example is a sure thing. It will remain in quantifiable demand. The same cannot be said for your genetic mutation. What will you do when you acquire one and, come time to sell, you are met with sour looks, lack of interest, disparaging comments or outright refusals to buy. Worse, how will your heirs feel? If you have the relic, by all means hold on to it, but if you haven't and wish to acquire it, don''t until such time as reliable information regarding valid demand becomes available. Sometimes genetic mutations are good for a species. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 On 2/13/2024 at 7:56 PM, Errorists said: Sometimes genetic mutations are good for a species. I appreciate the passion you express for your side of the hobby but I wouldn't want to see you taken advantage of by some sliver-tongued huckster. By all means, continue to pursue your dreams but if you are ever in doubt about something, run it by the membership here. And remember, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) On 2/13/2024 at 6:30 PM, Errorists said: Double struck ones? Why are you calling it a ,double broadstrike coin ? It looks like a cupped broadstrike Edited February 14 by J P M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Hard to believe this thread is not even a day old... In any event, a member inquiring as to the whereabouts of @Lem E who hasn't posted on his "Post your 5-cent pieces" thread since shortly before Christmas, prompted me to review that Topic and I discovered two posts which would be germane to this conversation. Respecting the privacy of both posters, I should like to direct your attention to a post dated 12/23/2023 which features a certified nickel labeled Mint Error, MS-64 6FS, Broadstruck, as well as a post made January 17, just last month, which features two raw broadstrucks, one of which appears to greatly exceed the deformity exhibited by your bicentennial quarter. Neither member has weighed in on your find but you may wish to consider reaching out to both (PM) for any information or suggestions they may have regarding your coin. Bear in mind, In your case, as Sandon wisely noted, "which one is 'more rare and valuable' is inherently a matter for conjecture," and opinions evidently abound. [Posted at the discretion of Moderation.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 On 2/14/2024 at 11:13 AM, Henri Charriere said: Hard to believe this thread is not even a day old... In any event, a member inquiring as to the whereabouts of @Lem E who hasn't posted on his "Post your 5-cent pieces" thread since shortly before Christmas, prompted me to review that Topic and I discovered two posts which would be germane to this conversation. Respecting the privacy of both posters, I should like to direct your attention to a post dated 12/23/2023 which features a certified nickel labeled Mint Error, MS-64 6FS, Broadstruck, as well as a post made January 17, just last month, which features two raw broadstrucks, one of which appears to greatly exceed the deformity exhibited by your bicentennial quarter. Neither member has weighed in on your find but you may wish to consider reaching out to both (PM) for any information or suggestions they may have regarding your coin. Bear in mind, In your case, as Sandon wisely noted, "which one is 'more rare and valuable' is inherently a matter for conjecture," and opinions evidently abound. [Posted at the discretion of Moderation.] I would think numbers make it rare or not. Not conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) On 2/14/2024 at 1:04 PM, Errorists said: I would think numbers make it rare or not. Not conjecture. You wouldn't think so but many rare or uncommon things have little or no value because the demand simply wasn't or isn't there. Hot off the wire: ERROR COINAGE, U.S. Coins Showcase, Auctions 1, March 18. It wouldn't hurt to take a look at the varied lots and review the prices realized afterward. Brought to you by Heritage Auctions. Who knows, you may find a close match. Edited February 14 by Henri Charriere Word substitution and typo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladking Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 The broadstrike even literally wouldn't fit in the hole of a collection. There are some pretty neat bicentennial quarter errors and that is one of the neatest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 On 2/14/2024 at 12:36 PM, cladking said: The broadstrike even literally wouldn't fit in the hole of a collection. There are some pretty neat bicentennial quarter errors and that is one of the neatest. Thanks Cladking. I thought it would be desirable so I jumped on it. A nice American coin that honors our heritage. I thought it would grade very high also at the time. A little story behind the coin. I won it on a Bicentennial error lot of about 30 such coins both quarters and Kennedy half dollars very high grade on eBay auction 20 or so years ago. Very low price also. I consider myself lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 On 2/13/2024 at 5:59 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: As @RWB ... there are more 1893-S Morgan Dollars slabbed than half cents in existence today. However, the Morgan Dollar is much more expensive - why? Demand! Very interesting statistic, but how, exactly, were you able to extrapolate that, and from what? The last time I volunteered some numbers, I was shut down. A hundred million 🐓 are unaccounted for, but I don't know that I could state conclusively that there are more of "X slabbed," than "roosters in existence." How many were melted, spirited out from France, lost, etc? No one knows. The certifications to date, remain but a tip of the iceberg. I would imagine you have a good grasp of your area of collecting, but "in existence?" I have mintages and certification censuses, but little else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) On 2/22/2024 at 8:04 PM, Henri Charriere said: Very interesting statistic, but how, exactly, were you able to extrapolate that, and from what? The last time I volunteered some numbers, I was shut down. A hundred million 🐓 are unaccounted for, but I don't know that I could state conclusively that there are more of "X slabbed," than "roosters in existence." How many were melted, spirited out from France, lost, etc? No one knows. The certifications to date, remain but a tip of the iceberg. I would imagine you have a good grasp of your area of collecting, but "in existence?" I have mintages and certification censuses, but little else. Thank you. My statement is misrepresenting. It should say... "There are more slabbed examples of the 1893-S Morgan Dollar (the key to the series), than the most common date half cent in existence today (slabbed and raw)." That would have been much better. I mean any given half cent date, no matter how common... not all the half cents in total (which is how it sounds re-reading it) Sorry about that. If you are wondering how I know even this... the answer is EAC writings, and the further writings of Bill Eckberg on the subject. The group has built very solid cenus numbers that go beyond TPGs (because many early copper collectors collect raw). Edited February 23 by The Neophyte Numismatist Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) On 2/22/2024 at 10:49 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: (because many early copper collectors collect raw). How DARE they? Edited February 24 by VKurtB Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
