1987 P Quarter - God We Rust (instead of In God We Trust) and Filled in P error? 2 2

[TheKid316]

Still trying to get picture taking down, I ordered a microscope with camera (I think) so that should help instead of this crappy phone app.

I have seen errors on this Quarter like this but not to this extent. The condition does not look good but I know there are collectors with different taste. Of course I am a total noob so what do I know?

Is this a legit error? It says God We Rust instead of In God We Trust which is kind of funny. Also, the P is filled in. 

If an error and a market how do I go about prepping it (clean it?) and marketing it? Please forgive my idiocy I am trying to learn. 

[Coinbuf]

Your quarter is in very poor condition, lots of circulation damage and its impossible to say if this was a filled die or just circulation damage.   Filled dies are very common and minor errors, the TPG's will seldom acknowledge something this minor, and most informed collectors will not pay any premium for such minor errors.   Your coin is worth its face value of $.25.

Having said that, you will see this type of stuff listed on sites like ebay or etsy with huge asking prices by sellers that are looking to rip off other people.

[TheKid316]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:00 PM, Coinbuf said:

Your quarter is in very poor condition, lots of circulation damage and its impossible to say if this was a filled die or just circulation damage.   Filled dies are very common and minor errors, the TPG's will seldom acknowledge something this minor, and most informed collectors will not pay any premium for such minor errors.   Your coin is worth its face value of $.25.

Having said that, you will see this type of stuff listed on sites like ebay or etsy with huge asking prices by sellers that are looking to rip off other people.

Thank you for the thorough explanation!! I have indeed seen the big asking prices (I assumed they were scams based on the research I do) and I wondered if anyone ever bit on that stuff. It is sad people do that but buyers should also do their homework. There are so many caveats to all of this and I am slowly learning. I appreciate your reply! 

[powermad5000]

It is hard to tell with that amount of wear, if the original MS state of this coin that it was struck from a partial grease filled die (possibly), and there could be a die chip or a grease filled mintmark on the P, or if the P is just also worn down to the point that it became filled as the metal is flattening out. Either way, these kinds of things would not qualify as errors as they would be considered by any TPG as "too minor" even if they were struck through in the MS state of this coin.

As for your question, even if this was to be considered an error (even in the state of wear it has), NEVER, NEVER, NEVER clean the coin. It is best left in the state it is already in. If it were an error, it might sell for a little more if it were authenticated as a mint error by a TPG and in a holder than it would raw, but any error also has to be taken into consideration before going that route, as common (minor) attributable errors still might not be worth the cost of authenticating them as such as the error just might not get enough premium to offset the cost of slabbing it. Certain minor errors would be sold raw, but noted as by Coinbuf, you will find tons of stuff just like what you have on eBay with ridiculous asking prices trying to rip off someone who doesn't know any better. You also cannot use those figures as a guide for what to price a coin either. Those are rip off prices. You would need to find something similar to what you have and find its sold or auction ending sold price to get a more true measure of value. And, you can always just ask here. 

[TheKid316]

On 2/12/2024 at 11:01 PM, powermad5000 said:

It is hard to tell with that amount of wear, if the original MS state of this coin that it was struck from a partial grease filled die (possibly), and there could be a die chip or a grease filled mintmark on the P, or if the P is just also worn down to the point that it became filled as the metal is flattening out. Either way, these kinds of things would not qualify as errors as they would be considered by any TPG as "too minor" even if they were struck through in the MS state of this coin.

As for your question, even if this was to be considered an error (even in the state of wear it has), NEVER, NEVER, NEVER clean the coin. It is best left in the state it is already in. If it were an error, it might sell for a little more if it were authenticated as a mint error by a TPG and in a holder than it would raw, but any error also has to be taken into consideration before going that route, as common (minor) attributable errors still might not be worth the cost of authenticating them as such as the error just might not get enough premium to offset the cost of slabbing it. Certain minor errors would be sold raw, but noted as by Coinbuf, you will find tons of stuff just like what you have on eBay with ridiculous asking prices trying to rip off someone who doesn't know any better. You also cannot use those figures as a guide for what to price a coin either. Those are rip off prices. You would need to find something similar to what you have and find its sold or auction ending sold price to get a more true measure of value. And, you can always just ask here. 

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain things. You can't this knowledge from YouTube or bloggers who lure people in with clickbait titles. It is such a cool and way more extensive than one would think craft. I used to do everything I could to get rid of change now I find myself looking for reasons to buy things with cash. 

Would you say that bank rolls would be a good way to find some hidden treasures? I see that suggestion a lot with the click baiters.

[Sandon]

On 2/13/2024 at 12:19 AM, TheKid316 said:

Would you say that bank rolls would be a good way to find some hidden treasures?

   There is very little chance that you will ever find anything of substantial value looking through change or accumulations of common coins. I have been collecting coins for nearly 53 years and have never found any coin worth more than a few dollars. I know only one person who ever has, a collector of many years who received a Lincoln cent that had been overstruck by Jefferson nickel dies in change at a grocery store, perhaps worth a few hundred dollars.  Such an occurrence is at best a once in a lifetime event.

   When I receive uncirculated coins taken from a fresh roll at a bank or store, I do save the most mark-free and well-struck pieces so that they might be cherished by future generations of collectors.  They are unlikely to be of much value in our lifetimes. 

   Have you checked the resources to which I referred you in a previous topic and at least obtained a "Redbook", a grading guide, and a subscription to a current price guide?  Your best option is to acquire the knowledge necessary to make wise purchases that may appreciate over the years.

Edited February 13 by Sandon
correct punctuation

[TheKid316]

On 2/12/2024 at 11:38 PM, Sandon said:

   There is very little chance that you will ever find anything of substantial value looking through change or accumulations of common coins. I have been collecting coins for nearly 53 years and have never found any coin worth more than a few dollars. I know only one person who ever has, a collector of many years who received a Lincoln cent that had been overstruck by Jefferson nickel dies in change at a grocery store, perhaps worth a few hundred dollars.  Such an occurrence is at best a once in a lifetime event.

   When I receive uncirculated coins taken from a fresh roll at a bank or store, I do save the most mark-free and well-struck pieces so that they might be cherished by future generations of collectors.  They are unlikely to be of much value in our lifetimes. 

   Have you checked the resources to which I referred you in a previous topic and at least obtained a "Redbook", a grading guide, and a subscription to a current price guide?  Your best option is to acquire the knowledge necessary to make wise purchases that may appreciate over the years?

No I stepped away for a while. I had an investigation that monopolized my time with recon and surveillance so I am literally just getting back to it now. Like today.

So all of those mofo's just use that as click bait, "hunt for hidden treasures amongst the circulated and bank rolls." I am not going to lie that takes a big part of the excitement out of it for me. No offense intended for anyone involved but it just seems like another hobby for the well off,  collections of "i've got money to throw around" pieces not much different than art. I thought it was a game of find cool stuff in the wild, even-ish playing field and now I am very disappointed. I will not be able to leisurely afford anything worth a when I get like 5 items for 20 bucks at the grocery store.

I def appreciate your honesty. I mean this in a funny way, I am the kid who just got told there is no Santa Clause lol. 

[l.cutler]

I agree completely with Sandon, I have been collecting for 55 years and never found anything of value either.  It is not just a hobby for the well off though, there are many ways to collect that don't cost much at all.  Putting together sets from circulation, foreign coins can be had very cheaply, even ancient Roman coins can be had for a couple dollars!  If you like error coins, most of them are not very expensive at all.  It's a hobby, an enjoyable way to pass some time and learn new things at the same time. What it definitely isn't is a get rich quick procedure!  Stick around and read the posts, you may find an area of numismatics that interests you.

[ThePhiladelphiaPenny]

On 2/13/2024 at 12:19 AM, TheKid316 said:

Would you say that bank rolls would be a good way to find some hidden treasures? I see that suggestion a lot with the click baiters.

I have only been in this hobby for three years now, but I personally would say yes. Bank rolls, though you will find mostly normal and worthless coins, are a great way to find some minor treasures. A few months ago, I got four rolls, and found a 1919 penny. Terrible condition, but still exiting. I also found a MS 63 1964 penny, worth around $20. Don't expect to find a soaring eagle, or Indian head, but there is still some good stuff out there in spare change.

[Sandon]

On 2/13/2024 at 1:35 AM, TheKid316 said:

I mean this in a funny way, I am the kid who just got told there is no Santa Clause [sic]

   In fact, there is an old (going back to the 1950s or before) and well-known saying among collectors, "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics!"  Another such saying is, "Buy the book before the coin!"  The two sayings go together.  I began collecting decades before the publicly available internet existed, but knowledge and experience were just as important then as they are now.  The only difference is that you can obtain some of this knowledge online if you know what sites to use. Many of them in the two forum topics to which I referred you in your previous topic.

    There are coins suitable for every budget. I suggest that you go to a coin show or coin shop in your area, look at the selection of lower priced coins, and around and speak to the dealers and experienced collectors you meet there. There is no charge to admire the more expensive ones either.

On 2/13/2024 at 9:11 AM, ThePhiladelphiaPenny said:

I also found a MS 63 1964 penny, worth around $20.

   I don't know where you're getting your pricing information. This month's Coin World lists an uncertified 1964 cent grading MS 63 RB at 30 cents retail and an MS 65 RD at $4.  The NGC Price Guide, which assumes that the coins have been certified at a cost of $23 per coin grading fee alone, lists a full red MS 63 1964 cent at $7.50, markedly less for red and brown and brown examples. See Lincoln Cents, Memorial Reverse (1959-2008) | Price Guide & Values | NGC (ngccoin.com).  A third-party graded MS 65 RD lists $15 and a MS 66 RD lists $30 and still not worth the cost of certification.  Such pieces come from untouched uncirculated rolls and bags, not from circulation.

[ThePhiladelphiaPenny]

On 2/13/2024 at 10:46 AM, Sandon said:

 I don't know where you're getting your pricing information. This month's Coin World lists an uncertified 1964 cent grading MS 63 RB at 30 cents retail and an MS 65 RD at $4.  The NGC Price Guide, which assumes that the coins have been certified at a cost of $23 per coin grading fee alone, lists a full red MS 63 1964 cent at $7.50, markedly less for red and brown and brown examples. See Lincoln Cents, Memorial Reverse (1959-2008) | Price Guide & Values | NGC (ngccoin.com).  A third-party graded MS 65 RD lists $15 and a MS 66 RD lists $30 and still not worth the cost of certification.  Such pieces come from untouched uncirculated rolls and bags, not from circulation.

I get my info from the PCGS site. I just realized that I mis-typed, I meant to say I have a MS 65 1964 penny. Granted, I grade my coins myself, so there may be some inaccuracy, but from using photograde, and taking some time looking at the coin, it is somewhere in the ballpark area of MS 65.

[Henri Charriere]

My take on this is different.  The T in TRUST was there.  That is apparent.  There is nothing unusual about the mintmark.  Lots of things can happen to coins that have been in circulation for some thirty-seven years.

[TheKid316]

On 2/13/2024 at 3:33 AM, l.cutler said:

I agree completely with Sandon, I have been collecting for 55 years and never found anything of value either.  It is not just a hobby for the well off though, there are many ways to collect that don't cost much at all.  Putting together sets from circulation, foreign coins can be had very cheaply, even ancient Roman coins can be had for a couple dollars!  If you like error coins, most of them are not very expensive at all.  It's a hobby, an enjoyable way to pass some time and learn new things at the same time. What it definitely isn't is a get rich quick procedure!  Stick around and read the posts, you may find an area of numismatics that interests you.

I appreciate the insight. It is still interesting enough to do some more research for me. I just thought there would be more treasures circulating. I def didn't think it was a way to accumulate wealth, I just assumed it was more of a treasure hunt type hobby where on any day you could stumble on something special. But I am not discouraged to the point of not doing more research into it. Thank you for the reply!!

[TheKid316]

On 2/13/2024 at 8:11 AM, ThePhiladelphiaPenny said:

I have only been in this hobby for three years now, but I personally would say yes. Bank rolls, though you will find mostly normal and worthless coins, are a great way to find some minor treasures. A few months ago, I got four rolls, and found a 1919 penny. Terrible condition, but still exiting. I also found a MS 63 1964 penny, worth around $20. Don't expect to find a soaring eagle, or Indian head, but there is still some good stuff out there in spare change.

I am baffled as to why there would not be. Most people do not check their change so it's not like good coins are being cherry picked. I get that there may be wear and tear on them but the thought of just buying coins to build up a collection takes a great deal of the excitement out of it. And buying bank rolls is no cost at all because you still have the exact value back. But, those guys are 50 plus years in so I have to respect their experience. Come now to think of it though, my mom worked at a credit union for years and has some nice coins she pulled out of rolls (they will be mine eventually anyway) so I do think there is something to it.  

[powermad5000]

On 2/13/2024 at 8:07 PM, TheKid316 said:

I am baffled as to why there would not be. Most people do not check their change so it's not like good coins are being cherry picked.

There are a few coin roll hunters on here (nickels). I would say they do not find anything insanely valuable, but they do find some things that are interesting. Being aware is part of it. That is where your Redbook does play a part in it. I say being aware as I was unaware when the release of V75 privy quarters were all released into circulation. As it turned out, I had one for almost a couple years before I even knew they were all put into circulation.

I have found three mint errors. None of them were crazy errors worth big premiums but they were all found in circulation (strike throughs). I also did get a Roosy out of cash register change that I submitted and it returned graded well at MS 67 FT PL. I also recently got a 1966 Canadian Quarter 80% silver in my change and sold it on eBay not based upon its condition but based on silver melt value.

So, from my opinion, I hope some of the comments didn't burst your bubble totally. If you want to roll hunt, by all means do it. You will learn a lot from doing it.

[Sandon]

On 2/13/2024 at 9:07 PM, TheKid316 said:

I am baffled as to why there would not be [rare coins found in circulation].

      I can suggest several reasons:

      1. Rare coins are just that--rare, while coins by date and mint made since at least the 1940s are not. The mintages of most coins minted since the 1940s have been quite high compared those of many earlier issues, and since the mid-1960s the U.S. mint has regularly turned out tens of billions of coins per year.  Moreover, collectors, dealers, and speculators began putting away numerous rolls and bags of uncirculated coins beginning in the mid-1930s, which provide most of the supply of pieces sought by serious collectors today.  Even issues that have low mintages by modern standards, such as 1950-D nickels (2.6 million) and 1955-S cents (44.6 million) are still available in quantity in most uncirculated grades due to the hoarding of rolls and bags of these coins, especially by those who discovered that they were "low mintage." Pieces that have suffered the rigors of circulation are only sought by young, casual and budget collectors. If you were lucky enough to find a worn but undamaged 1950-D nickel in change, which is quite unlikely, you would have a coin with a retail value of perhaps $5.

    2.  Coins composed of silver were withdrawn from circulation, largely by non-collectors, in the mid-1960's due to their silver content being worth more than their face value. By the time I began collecting in 1971, one hardly ever received a silver coin in change.  My earliest silver "Mercury" and Roosevelt dimes and Washington quarters were circulated pieces given to me by my grandmother, who had saved about $10 to $20 in face value of silver coins when she learned that they would no longer be minted, while I had to buy others to fill my albums from coin dealers for three- or four-times face value.  While one might very rarely find a worn, common date silver coin in circulation today--usually a coin spent by someone who didn't realize that it was silver--collectors almost always have to buy them from coin dealers, with the uncirculated coins that originated in hoarded bags and rolls being the focus of serious collectors.

   3. Young and casual collectors and non-collectors also withdrew from circulation any coin with an obsolete or unfamiliar design or that seemed old from their perspective. In the early 1970s one or two out of a hundred cents was still a wheat reverse cent, mostly dated from 1940 to 1958, and I saved several hundred of them, which I still have, now worth all of a few cents each. I also saved hundreds of circulated Jefferson nickels dated from 1939 to 1960, still mostly worth no more than face value.  I understand that worn Indian cents and Buffalo nickels were still seen in change in the 1950s, but by the 1970s to find one would be a real treat. So many of these coins were withdrawn from circulation that they may still be bought with ease from dealers in bulk lots of hundreds of pieces.  (I actually found a Very Good or so 1929-D Buffalo nickel in my father's change in 2010, not long before he died; the coin was minted in the year of his birth but is still only worth a dollar or two.)

   4.  I understand that most major mint errors that escape mint inspectors are found by bank and counting house personnel and sold to coin dealers, which explains why most such errors offered for sale are in uncirculated condition.  In 2002 the mint instituted rigorous procedures that have largely prevented errors that result in misshapen coins, such as broadstrikes, multiple strikes, and coins struck on planchets intended for other denominations, from leaving the mint in the first place.  The "single squeeze" method of die preparation has greatly reduced the number of doubled die varieties of any significance from being created in the first place.  The purported errors and varieties that we see posted in this forum on a regular basis tend at best to be minor anomalies of no real value. 

   Occasionally, rare coins do turn up in estate sales and the like by sellers who are not familiar with coins. Some years ago, a member of my coin club purchased a mixed lot of mostly well-worn common date Indian cents at such a sale. He found that the lot included a Flying Eagle cent dated 1856 with somewhat rough surfaces, which he assumed to be counterfeit. I examined the coin and was amazed to find that it had the characteristics of a genuine example. My acquaintance submitted the coin to NGC, which authenticated it and, as I recall, graded it Fine details, environmental damage.  It was sold for around five thousand dollars.

Edited February 14 by Sandon
add missing word

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 2/13/2024 at 1:35 AM, TheKid316 said:

I am not going to lie that takes a big part of the excitement out of it for me. No offense intended for anyone involved but it just seems like another hobby for the well off,  collections of "i've got money to throw around" pieces not much different than art.

I guess it depends on what you are trying to do.  There is no rule that says you need to collect "valuable" coins.  I have a Lincoln Dansco album that I am putting together from circulation.  The album is worth more than the coins.  I do it because it's fun, it's a game to me... and if my little ones do it with me - even better.

Now, if you are collecting for monetary value... that's a different story.  You will be buying very high quality and very scarce coins.  These coins are neither cheap or found in circulation.  The fact that the coins cannot be found in circulation (and sometimes even the secondary market) is what makes the coins valuable (well, that and demand).  

You can have fun at any level of this hobby.   Many of us collect at multiple levels.  Many on these boards would be happy to get a worn wheat cent or war nickel in change at the gas station.  We know it's not valuable... it's just fun.

Edited February 14 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[ThePhiladelphiaPenny]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:15 PM, TheKid316 said:

Is this a legit error? It says God We Rust instead of In God We Trust which is kind of funny. Also, the P is filled in. 

I know there has been plenty of people that already answered this question, but no. As for the filled P, this happens as coins wear down, mint marks seem flatter and even filled, giving the illusion of an error. Once I thought I had an 1776-1976 bi-centennial quarter error coin for this same reason, but it turns out it was probably just wear.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Filled mint marks are most commonly attributed to "broken posts" in the die.  Remember that the coin is the inverse of the die.  So, to make a hole in the middle of the "D" or loop of the "P", the die will have a post sticking out.  Over time, the thin posts break off as the die wears out, leading to the MM looking filled.  

This is very common, and does not bring additional value to the coin, but some folks save them for fun or to study the die states.

Edited February 14 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[EagleRJO]

On 2/13/2024 at 1:35 AM, TheKid316 said:

So all of those mofo's just use that as click bait, "hunt for hidden treasures amongst the circulated and bank rolls." I am not going to lie that takes a big part of the excitement out of it for me. No offense intended for anyone involved but it just seems like another hobby for the well off ...

Well said by Neophyte that there are many ways to engage in this hobby depending on your budget and personal preferences.  There are a number of people on this forum that roll hunt modern coins, which really only costs you some time going to the bank to get rolls.  Some prefer cents and nickels, but I prefer larger coins and have hunted through pocket change and rolls for quarters, half dollars and dollar coins going back quite a long time.

I have found a few coins I could sell and some silver from roll hunting, but nothing super valuable like most.  I still look for those as it's still possible to find valuable coins hunting through pocket change and rolls, but it's really not about that or something a collector should expect.  There are also a number like me that collect modern proof or uncirculated dollar coins, like Presidential dollars or the Innovation dollars currently being produced by the mint.  Those are a few dollars each at most, and some of the uncirculated Presidential dollars you could also find roll hunting.

So how someone collects coins can vary greatly, but does not necessarily require deep pockets or really any money at all.  However, it is not like these clickbait videos some make coin collecting out to be where you can easily strike it rich simply searching through pocket change.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/14/2024 at 12:32 AM, Sandon said:

.... Occasionally, rare coins do turn up....

the lot included a Flying Eagle cent dated 1856.....

I examined the coin....

it had the characteristics of a genuine example....

My acquaintance submitted the coin....

authenticated it.... graded it Fine details, environmental damage. 

....It was sold for around five thousand dollars.

A masterful soliloquy, enumerated too, like a grocery list.  Motive?  Likely to attempt to bring Newbies to their senses and consider the sobering odds of making a rewarding find today, in 2024, before delivering the kicker insuring this Forum will be inundated by yet another generation of starry-eyed folks who can never be dissuaded from their religious-like conviction that there's gotta be another '43 copper out there somewhere if I can only figure out where to begin looking.

If it's the thrill of the hunt you enjoy, by all means, jump in, the water's fine.  If it's riches, don't give up your day job. That's how Mr. Holzhauer earned his moniker, "Jeopardy James." If you're only in it for amusement, look down.  If you're hoping to make a killing, look up at the finer pieces in life and expect to spend a good deal of time and money pursuing your dreams and investments.

You have a decidedly diverse, difficult-to-pin-down collecting style that eludes categorization:  by grade, series, vintage, rarity, or specialization.  You are eminently qualified to speak to/for all collectors, including one-trick ponies like me. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, wisdom and unique experiences and perspective.  🐓