Bart_RX7 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Hello, This is my first post since I just registered. I have a collection of 100 foreign coins from an "inheritance" (half 1800s and half mid 1900s). I only ever collected US coins...so I had to spend many days identifying everything using Numnista. Unfortunately there isn't much info about certain rare coins there. I've tried to identify "exactly" my MALEY...searching varieties and prices at auctions acsearch, numisbids, ma-shops, coinarchives, ngc, ebay, etc I looked at NGC...it has 5 different categories for my 1580 Maley https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/search/1/?keywords=BOHEMIA||1580||Maley+Groschen|BOHEMIA+1580+Maley+Groschen mb-240, mb-241, md-242, mb-250, mb-269. (only first 3 list prices ?!?!) BUT, they don't give me enough info to identify my coin as to which of the 5 categories it belongs to???? (all seem to be the same) Can anyone help - see pictures attached below???? Also, would the below coin be described as FINE condition or something else?? thanx much!!!! .....mark P.s. I also have already identified 3 other Bohemian coins : 1 Gross - Wencezlaus 1300-1305. ($179 I think based upon condition) 1 Gross - Vladislaus II 1471-1516. ($155 I think based upon condition) A Ein Groeschl 1781 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Please provide sharp, cropped photos of both sides of each coin. Also, try to set the color balance as in the 2nd photo -- the color in your 1st photo is misleading. (Members can't give you much information about lined paper.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart_RX7 Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 (edited) Hello, see proper color balance in 2 new pics below....and cropped. Sorry, I can't get any better pictures with my 12 megapixel Kodak camera and various lightings I've tried. Note: I hope someone can give me a better definition of the 5 categories of Bohemia Maley described on NGCCOIN.COM They basically all say the same thing !?!? .... SEE write-up attached at bottom (ONLY MB-269 gives Legend (...HBR) which does match my coin....and pictures of other coins I've seen have different legends) Hopefully pictures below are decent enough to allow someone to give an opinion of whether condition is Fine or something else? thanx...mark Edited January 27 by Bart_RX7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 This won't help either: https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/bohemia-maley-groschen-mb-240-1577-160z-cuid-115632-duid-296646. Someone else might have info. [No need to post the uncropped photos.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart_RX7 Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 I had deleted the 2 uncropped pics....and I subsequently edited & deleted them......and later edited / cut them out again But, the chat wouldn't get rid of them....must be an error in software I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebo Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Interesting coin, I’m having fun learning a bit about it. No clue on varieties yet. Welcome to the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Welcome to the Forum! The more obvious question is why are the blue lines bleeding -- some apparently on the coin's edge itself? Kodak??? And what powers beyond those of mortal cellphones do they provide? Ideally, this should be posted on the Newbie Forum, but you're here so why not make the most of your quandary. What did you do, take your Kodak moment and then record it for posterity using a cellphone? Your initial photos, measured at their widest, came in at little more than 1/2 inches, or 1-1/2 centimeters. Cropping is something done with cellphone cameras. You may have to repeat the procedure to achieve the widest photo permissible on these threads: 4.88 MB MAXIMUM TOTAL AND FILE SIZE. (see below). I believe you will get an informed answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart_RX7 Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 Hello, The Blue is definitely an artifact of how I took the original photo with the Kodak M550 digital camera...... I will need to take photos again on a cleaner sheet of paper. I cropped it with Apple Preview app. Note: I do NOT own a cell phone....(despite being a software engineer....love my 27" Apple IMAC) Difficult taking photos of such a small coin using camera's flash ...mark p.s. theoretically the blue shouldn't adversely affect people answering my questions in search of more info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart_RX7 Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 OK all, see new cropped pictures of front and obverse. thank you for any assistance grading the coin or identifying (confirming it is Maley MB-269?) ...mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebo Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Have you researched the history of these yet? What do you know about them? Really not what you are asking about, but would be educational for others in the forum who are unfamiliar. Such as info about he Hasbergs and mint. You might try and reach out to someone like Hans Dieter and ask about them. He may or may not be able to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) On 1/26/2024 at 5:09 PM, Bart_RX7 said: Hello, see proper color balance in 2 new pics below....and cropped. Sorry, I can't get any better pictures with my 12 megapixel Kodak camera and various lightings I've tried. Note: I hope someone can give me a better definition of the 5 categories of Bohemia Maley described on NGCCOIN.COM They basically all say the same thing !?!? .... SEE write-up attached at bottom (ONLY MB-269 gives Legend (...HBR) which does match my coin....and pictures of other coins I've seen have different legends) Hopefully pictures below are decent enough to allow someone to give an opinion of whether condition is Fine or something else? thanx...mark Looks like it is probably MB-240 to me. I think the MB #'s are broke down by mint for these, MB-240 being Prague, and are identified by the mintmaster's mark of which there can be several. The MM most closely resembles that of Tobias Gebhardt but on your coin the MM is not within a shield, not necessarily a deal breaker but I'd do some more research on that. Your coin does not need to exactly match another MB-240 coin, there will be differences, varieties, within these groupings based on what I'm seeing. I believe each die was handmade at the time and no two will be exact. Below is a list of legend varieties for Maley Groschen during the time of Rudolf II, published by the Czech Numismatic Society. If google translate is correct, your coin is a match for 6a which puts it at either Prague or Kuttenberg (MB-250) based on the date, which looks like 1580.? Hard to tell in the pics. Hopefully this gives you a path forward and that someone more familiar with these will jump in. 1) bez o p isu (Č .S.162) 2) RVD.II.D.G.R.I.S.A.G.H.B.REX (Č .S.183) 3) RVD .II.D.G.R.I.A.G.H.B.REX (K u p fe r ta b . 17/4) 4) R VDO .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .G .H .B .R . (K u p fe r ta b . 17/8) 5) R VDO L .II.D .G .I.S .A .G .H .B .R E (sb írka H a n .) 6a) RVDOL .II.D.G.R.I.S.A .H.B.R (Č .S.186) 6b) RVDOL.II.D.G.R.I.S.A.H.B.RE (Č .S.187) 6c) RVDOL.II.D.G.R.I.S.A.H.B.REX (Č .S.189) 6d ) RVDOL .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .H .BO .R E (sb írka H a n .) 6e) R VDO L .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .H .BO .R FX (Č .S.193) 6f) RVDOL.II.D.G.R.I.S.A.HV.B.REX (sb írka H a n .) 6g) RVDOL .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .H V .BO .R E (sbírka H a n .) 7a) R VDO L .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .G .H .B .R (Č .S.150) 7b) R VDOL .II.D.G.R.I.S .A.G .H .B .RE (Č .S.155) 7c) RVDOL.II.D.G.R.I.S .A.G .H .B .RE X (Č .S.148) 7d) R V D O L .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .G .H .BO .R (sb írka N o vá k ) 7e) R VDOL .II.D.G.R.I.S .A.G E.H .B.R (Č .S.159) 7f) R V D O L .II.D .G .RO .I.S .A .G .H .B .R (Č .S.164) 7g) R V D O L .II.D .G .R O .I.S .A .G .H .BO .R (sbírka H a n .) 8) RVDOL .II.D.G.R.I.S.G.H.B.REX (D o n . 1664) 9) RVDOL.II.D.G.R.I.S.G.B.REX (D o n . 1690) 10) RVDOL .II.D .G .R .I.A .H .B .R (D o n .1728) Edited January 27 by Fenntucky Mike Words Zebo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart_RX7 Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 Hello Fenntucky Mike, Thank you so much for all this great info…..!! A few questions if I may: 1) Where is the table that cross references the C.S. 162 - C.S. 193 (or lines 1-10) vs the MB’s ?? 2) Do any of these entries reference the MB-269 (1580-1581) ?? The Numista MB-240 and MB-241 entries clearly have different legends, but I suppose it could be the MB-250 as you indicate (despite no dots around the verbiage). (Not the MB-242 per Numista comment re: mint marks) 3) But, see insert at bottom re: mint marks according to Dietiker described in Numista https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces82135.html Doesn’t this indicate the mint mark is Hans Spiess from 1599-1603, which makes the 1580 date impossible ?? Respectfully, Mark Comments Previous KM#1018 Mint marks according to Dietiker: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 On 1/27/2024 at 2:33 PM, Bart_RX7 said: Hello Fenntucky Mike, Thank you so much for all this great info…..!! A few questions if I may: 1) Where is the table that cross references the C.S. 162 - C.S. 193 (or lines 1-10) vs the MB’s ?? 2) Do any of these entries reference the MB-269 (1580-1581) ?? The Numista MB-240 and MB-241 entries clearly have different legends, but I suppose it could be the MB-250 as you indicate (despite no dots around the verbiage). (Not the MB-242 per Numista comment re: mint marks) 3) But, see insert at bottom re: mint marks according to Dietiker described in Numista https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces82135.html Doesn’t this indicate the mint mark is Hans Spiess from 1599-1603, which makes the 1580 date impossible ?? Respectfully, Mark Comments Previous KM#1018 Mint marks according to Dietiker: I don't know what reference the MB #'s are used in (presumably Krause?), that being said the table I posted is from a book published by the Czech Numismatic Society so I'm pretty sure that it will not cross to which ever reference the MB#'s are in. Again, it wouldn't surprise me if several varieties are lumped under one MB# as those seem to be base on where the coins were produced. I'll take a look at Krause when I get a min later tonight and if I can find it again I'll post the link for the CNS book, it's available to download. I think your piece is most likely MB-240 due to the similarity of the MM to one used in Prague and the date. I don't think the MM on your piece resembles the one used by Hans Spiess but you have the coin in hand and, as I said, the dies were made by hand and some artistic license taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart_RX7 Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 Hello Mike, I'm trying to understand the following....my coin legend is HBR (see photos) The numista MB-240 link here indicates the legend Lettering: RVDOL II D G // R I S A H B REX https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces94685.html Thus, can't be MB-240 The numista MB-241 link here indicates the legend Lettering: RVDOL II D G // R I S A H B REX https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces94690.html Thus, can't be MB-241 The numista MB-242 link below indicates following details for MM: Mintmarks: (bc) Dog's head left in circle - mintmaster Tobias Gebhardt (bd) Star - mintmaster Christoph Schönfeld (bf) Dog's head left in shield - mintmaster Christoph Mattighofer https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces94694.html Might be MB-242 if "dog's head left in circle" is proper description of MM at bottom (and not in?) circle in my photo but, I question why there are no "dots" on both sides of the lettering for MB-242 coins like in my photo (varieties??) Additionally, the Ngccoin price list shows that the (bc) version was "only used" in years 1577-1579 (not 1580 or later) https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/bohemia-maley-groschen-mb-242-1577-1600-cuid-115638-duid-296797 The numista MB-250 link below indicates following details for MM: "Hans Spiess MM is 1599-1603"; but, can't be MB-250 due to 1580 date https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces82135.html Numista doe not have an MB-269 listing, but NGCCOIN link for MB-269 indicates MM says: 1580-1581 only, but has NO picture "Obverse Legend: RVDOL.II.D.G.-R.I.S.A.G.H.B.R. Reverse: Crowned 'R' between two floral ornaments, three-line inscription with date below." https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/search/1/?keywords=BOHEMIA||1580||Maley+Groschen|BOHEMIA+1580+Maley+Groschen Thus, MB-269 seems like a strong possibility I look forward to additional thoughts / information from you re: lettering, dates, MM etc Perhaps the Numista details & pictures are wrong for some of the MBs ?! respectfully, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 On 1/27/2024 at 7:52 PM, Bart_RX7 said: Hello Mike, I'm trying to understand the following....my coin legend is HBR (see photos) The numista MB-240 link here indicates the legend Lettering: RVDOL II D G // R I S A H B REX https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces94685.html Thus, can't be MB-240 The numista MB-241 link here indicates the legend Lettering: RVDOL II D G // R I S A H B REX https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces94690.html Thus, can't be MB-241 The numista MB-242 link below indicates following details for MM: Mintmarks: (bc) Dog's head left in circle - mintmaster Tobias Gebhardt (bd) Star - mintmaster Christoph Schönfeld (bf) Dog's head left in shield - mintmaster Christoph Mattighofer https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces94694.html Might be MB-242 if "dog's head left in circle" is proper description of MM at bottom (and not in?) circle in my photo but, I question why there are no "dots" on both sides of the lettering for MB-242 coins like in my photo (varieties??) Additionally, the Ngccoin price list shows that the (bc) version was "only used" in years 1577-1579 (not 1580 or later) https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/bohemia-maley-groschen-mb-242-1577-1600-cuid-115638-duid-296797 The numista MB-250 link below indicates following details for MM: "Hans Spiess MM is 1599-1603"; but, can't be MB-250 due to 1580 date https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces82135.html Numista doe not have an MB-269 listing, but NGCCOIN link for MB-269 indicates MM says: 1580-1581 only, but has NO picture "Obverse Legend: RVDOL.II.D.G.-R.I.S.A.G.H.B.R. Reverse: Crowned 'R' between two floral ornaments, three-line inscription with date below." https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/search/1/?keywords=BOHEMIA||1580||Maley+Groschen|BOHEMIA+1580+Maley+Groschen Thus, MB-269 seems like a strong possibility I look forward to additional thoughts / information from you re: lettering, dates, MM etc Perhaps the Numista details & pictures are wrong for some of the MBs ?! respectfully, Mark Mark, I haven't had a chance to look into these more but if I can find some time this morning before the games start I'll poke around post what I find here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) Could be MB-269. Ok, below is a link to the CNS book where you can download a .pdf. https://www.academia.edu/26698446/Vladimír_Hanibal_Emil_Novák_Malé_groše_Small_Groschen_Kleine_Groschen The MB#'s are from Krause (The Standard Catalog of World Coins) and stand for Mishler-Bruce who were the catalogers of such pieces, I believe one or both had worked at Krause. At one point Krause was back-building catalogs, first to 1701 then to 1601-1700, but never completed a Standard Catalog for 1501-1600 even though a substantial amount of cataloging had been done. The MB#'s seem to mostly consist of coins who's existence predates 1601 and which were included in the last edition of the SCWC 1601-1700 as work was stopped on the 1501-1600 catalog. Not really helpful to your cause but I found it interesting and thought I'd post it for others to see. There is a viewable copy of the SCWC 1601-1700 which includes MB#'s, you can find it HERE. Krause is good, Numista is better but you have to take all of the information with a grain of salt, both are imperfect and neither contain all available info for every coin.I also just noticed that there is a notation for some of the MB#'s stating "Varieties Exist", if you really want to dive deep into these you're going to have to find more specialized references and don't be surprised if most and/or the best are in another language but I think you're close with the MB-269 so you might not have to delve too much more deeply. Good luck. Edited January 30 by Fenntucky Mike zadok 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobymordet Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 is this it? https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces397440.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart_RX7 Posted January 31 Author Share Posted January 31 Fenntucky Mike, Thank you for the great material in your last posting (and all your previous MM information). They helped clarify a few things. Cobymordet: I just "added / created" the page you referenced a few days ago to Numista's catalogue. You can see the coin photos exactly match the ones I used above to start this NGC thread. You can slso see the "© mjbartusek (CC BY-SA)" in Numista below the coin pictures. Mark Fenntucky Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobymordet Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 lol, I am glad I could locate your coin for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
