Grading and price 1 1

[LILpitik]

Hey everyone, I came across a Morgan Dollar online and I'm curious about its potential grade given its current condition. Any advice on what a fair offer might be for it?
These are all the pictures that I have,I appreciate the details on it thought i think that it could be cleaned.

[Mr.Bill347]

My advice when buying CC Morgan’s is;

Be very cautious! I would not trust most of those you see on EBay, and don’t trust  Etsy or Mercari. If I were you and looking at Morgan CCs I would strongly recommend only buying a TPG version . That way you know it’s genuine. If you don’t mind getting one that’s been lightly cleaned, there are examples to find such as this one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/235350073515?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=LIrJgCCOTba&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=T97vizlURgm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
 

so many are cleaned, polished, buffed, dipped or outright counterfeit. 
if you don’t mind some damage here is one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225917172765?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=r2rztt_yrc6&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=T97vizlURgm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

your coin does not appear cleaned to me and retains good luster. As a comparison an MS 62 or 63 graded could run as much as $500

[LILpitik]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:01 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

My advice when buying CC Morgan’s is;

Be very cautious! I would not trust most of those you see on EBay, and don’t trust  Etsy or Mercari. If I were you and looking at Morgan CCs I would strongly recommend only buying a TPG version . That way you know it’s genuine. If you don’t mind getting one that’s been lightly cleaned, there are examples to find such as this one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/235350073515?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=LIrJgCCOTba&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=T97vizlURgm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
 

so many are cleaned, polished, buffed, dipped or outright counterfeit. 
if you don’t mind some damage here is one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225917172765?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=r2rztt_yrc6&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=T97vizlURgm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

your coin does not appear cleaned to me and retains good luster. As a comparison an MS 62 or 63 graded could run as much as $500

Thank you for the info,if i were to buy an ungraded coin from ebay I surely would verify its authenticity when it arrives.

[Greenstang]

If you are looking at eBay to buy an ungraded Morgan, suggest posting photos and a link to    
the posting here and some of are experts may be able to help with the authenticity.

[JKK]

Looks pretty original to me, and rather nice. Not sure how obvious the notable scratch on the cheek is, but that and some field scratches in front of her nose would seem to me to be the grade limiters, along with what might be a pretty good ding under TRUST. The first are in prime focal areas, so the question is how obvious those are without magnification. We see blown-up pics of coins so often it's easy to forget that grading is without magnification, and what's obvious to us here might be less so in hand.

If those are still obvious in hand, I think this tops at 63. If they look relatively faint in hand, perhaps 64-65. I think there are enough scattered contact marks to keep it from going much higher. I think if you get it in the mid-$500s you probably got a very good deal. That's competitive 63 pricing. 64 would send it up around $800-900. If it were 65, competitive pricing would be closer to $2000 or so. So whatever they're asking, you can tell what grade they think it is by the price. Then you can decide if that's a fair grade (we'll help).

[Mike Meenderink]

The coin is genuine and has an approximate photo grade of MS62. The scratch on the face may or may not be counted as damage but if it were seen as detracting the coin would get UNC DETAILS Scratched. It is valued around $350 -$450 in straight grade and $250-$300 in UNC Details Scratched.

[RWB]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:12 AM, LILpitik said:

Thank you for the info,if i were to buy an ungraded coin from ebay I surely would verify its authenticity when it arrives.

The coin you posted is a rather scruffy EF grade coin.It might retail for about $250, which makes the cost of authentication and TPG grading barely practical.

[LILpitik]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:31 PM, JKK said:

Looks pretty original to me, and rather nice. Not sure how obvious the notable scratch on the cheek is, but that and some field scratches in front of her nose would seem to me to be the grade limiters, along with what might be a pretty good ding under TRUST. The first are in prime focal areas, so the question is how obvious those are without magnification. We see blown-up pics of coins so often it's easy to forget that grading is without magnification, and what's obvious to us here might be less so in hand.

If those are still obvious in hand, I think this tops at 63. If they look relatively faint in hand, perhaps 64-65. I think there are enough scattered contact marks to keep it from going much higher. I think if you get it in the mid-$500s you probably got a very good deal. That's competitive 63 pricing. 64 would send it up around $800-900. If it were 65, competitive pricing would be closer to $2000 or so. So whatever they're asking, you can tell what grade they think it is by the price. Then you can decide if that's a fair grade (we'll help).

I will keep that in mind,I will let u know about the final price since it is an auction.

[LILpitik]

On 12/20/2023 at 6:10 PM, RWB said:

The coin you posted is a rather scruffy EF grade coin.It might retail for about $250, which makes the cost of authentication and TPG grading barely practical.

I see,that is quite concerning to me i was expecting a bit higher grade.

 

[powermad5000]

I do not see anything glaring that would tell me the coin is a counterfeit, but if you were thinking of making such a purchase, you should put the coin through its paces immediately upon receiving it. Also, for a coin of any value such as this, I would not buy online without a return policy. If the seller has a no return policy, that is a hard no for me when making online coin purchases.

To me, the coin appears to have its original surfaces, albeit a couple heavy hits on both sides as well as a lot of bag marks and "chatter". I think XF is too low of a grade for this coin and I think with the full wreath on the reverse, eagles breast feathers visible, and viewing the normal wear spots of the hair and cotton bolls and leaves on the obverse that this is in MS range, however, it would be limited by all the markings as well as the scratch across the cheek on the obverse. I am not sure if the graders would ding that and give it a details grade for the scratch, as if they determine that it was caused by the rim of another Morgan while still in the mint bag, then it will not get dinged for details. However, if they believe the scratch was caused either intentionally or unintentionally once out of the Mint bag, then it will get a details grade. This condition would only be able to be determined with the coin in hand, so that would be something else to look at if you were to purchase this coin.

I think the way it sits it would be in the very low end of MS (60-61) and realistically priced between $375-425. If the scratch however turns out to be a damage scratch and not caused by another coin in the Mint bag, that would severely limit its collector value and I would say would drop the realized value of this to between $250-300.

[EagleRJO]

Unless that coin is from a larger more reputable coin dealer and you know how to properly authenticate Morgan dollar coins, which is an advanced area of coin collecting and very difficult to do just based on photos, I would not buy raw uncertified coins on sites like Etsy/eBay.  There are quite a lot of Chinese counterfeits on sites like that, with some of them being very deceptive and you can easily get burned.

Unless you are able to post a Morgan VAM and approximate grade for someone here to take a look at, do yourself a favor and stick with coins already certified by a grading company.

[powermad5000]

I think this one is legit @EagleRJO. I was just comparing it to the one I have and mine has a similar die crack running through AMERICA on the reverse. It almost appears that this coin was struck after mine and the die crack worsened as the one on mine stops at the A in AMERICA. I would say counterfeiters have a problem trying to recreate the thin die cracks found on legitimate examples.

Still if I were to purchase it I would definitely check its weight and probably have it XRF tested at a minimum.

Edited December 20, 2023 by powermad5000

[EagleRJO]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:53 PM, powermad5000 said:

I was just comparing it to the one I have and mine has a similar die crack running through AMERICA on the reverse. It almost appears that this coin was struck after mine and the die crack worsened as the one on mine stops at the A in AMERICA. I would say counterfeiters have a problem trying to recreate the thin die cracks found on legitimate examples.

Die indicators such as die cracks and marks are indeed difficult but not impossible to reproduce accurately, so if you are sure it has a matching die crack, as well as a date and mintmark which match, to go with the overall appearance which seems about right it's likely legit.

That's very unusual that it just happens to have matching die indicators for the same date/mark coin you have, and normally someone inexperienced like this should stay far away from raw uncertified coins on sites like Etsy/eBay.

[Coinbuf]

@LILpitik the 1878CC in your op looks to grade in the AU range and I personally would give it a details grade due to that staple scratch on the obv cheek.   The only thing going for it is it does appear to be genuine; I do not follow pricing for damaged coins so I will refrain from quoting a price.   I will say that the obv scratch would be an automatic pass for me.   If it were to slide into an MS grade it would be MS61 at best.

This is my PCGS MS64 example for comparison.  While at first glance my coin may look a bit rough the lines in front of the obv bust are toning streaks not contact marks.   Notice the difference in the cotton bolls on my coin to the one you posted.    Notice the lack of scruffiness in the fields on both the obv and rev of my coin but not the one you posted.   Anytime you see wear and contact marks in the fields the chances are very high of a circulated grade at the major grading companies like NGC.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Coinbuf

[RWB]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:24 AM, LILpitik said:

I see,that is quite concerning to me i was expecting a bit higher grade.

 

I'm sure some will claim it is uncirculated or something else, but the reality is that there is clear wear in the fields on both sides, and on much of the design high points. The surfaces are peppered with tiny nicks and scrapes from contact with other coins during use, and the scratch on Liberty's face is very distracting. All together it's a higher end EF for wear, but is too unattractive to bring a better price. A crafty coin dealer might use it to bait people into looking at a "bargain" price then switch them to a better looking coin for more money.

However, in all cases, it is your decision to make.

[LILpitik]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:17 PM, Greenstang said:

If you are looking at eBay to buy an ungraded Morgan, suggest posting photos and a link to    
the posting here and some of are experts may be able to help with the authenticity.

 

On 12/20/2023 at 5:31 PM, JKK said:

Looks pretty original to me, and rather nice. Not sure how obvious the notable scratch on the cheek is, but that and some field scratches in front of her nose would seem to me to be the grade limiters, along with what might be a pretty good ding under TRUST. The first are in prime focal areas, so the question is how obvious those are without magnification. We see blown-up pics of coins so often it's easy to forget that grading is without magnification, and what's obvious to us here might be less so in hand.

If those are still obvious in hand, I think this tops at 63. If they look relatively faint in hand, perhaps 64-65. I think there are enough scattered contact marks to keep it from going much higher. I think if you get it in the mid-$500s you probably got a very good deal. That's competitive 63 pricing. 64 would send it up around $800-900. If it were 65, competitive pricing would be closer to $2000 or so. So whatever they're asking, you can tell what grade they think it is by the price. Then you can decide if that's a fair grade (we'll help).

 

On 12/20/2023 at 10:48 PM, powermad5000 said:

I do not see anything glaring that would tell me the coin is a counterfeit, but if you were thinking of making such a purchase, you should put the coin through its paces immediately upon receiving it. Also, for a coin of any value such as this, I would not buy online without a return policy. If the seller has a no return policy, that is a hard no for me when making online coin purchases.

To me, the coin appears to have its original surfaces, albeit a couple heavy hits on both sides as well as a lot of bag marks and "chatter". I think XF is too low of a grade for this coin and I think with the full wreath on the reverse, eagles breast feathers visible, and viewing the normal wear spots of the hair and cotton bolls and leaves on the obverse that this is in MS range, however, it would be limited by all the markings as well as the scratch across the cheek on the obverse. I am not sure if the graders would ding that and give it a details grade for the scratch, as if they determine that it was caused by the rim of another Morgan while still in the mint bag, then it will not get dinged for details. However, if they believe the scratch was caused either intentionally or unintentionally once out of the Mint bag, then it will get a details grade. This condition would only be able to be determined with the coin in hand, so that would be something else to look at if you were to purchase this coin.

I think the way it sits it would be in the very low end of MS (60-61) and realistically priced between $375-425. If the scratch however turns out to be a damage scratch and not caused by another coin in the Mint bag, that would severely limit its collector value and I would say would drop the realized value of this to between $250-300.

 

On 12/20/2023 at 10:48 PM, EagleRJO said:

Unless that coin is from a larger more reputable coin dealer and you know how to properly authenticate Morgan dollar coins, which is an advanced area of coin collecting and very difficult to do just based on photos, I would not buy raw uncertified coins on sites like Etsy/eBay.  There are quite a lot of Chinese counterfeits on sites like that, with some of them being very deceptive and you can easily get burned.

Unless you are able to post a Morgan VAM and approximate grade for someone here to take a look at, do yourself a favor and stick with coins already certified by a grading company.

Hey everyone, I'm back with an update on the coin situation. Snagged it for $308, and I'm thinking that's a decent price. What's your take on it?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/196133948972 

[J P M]

Congrats 

[powermad5000]

The win!!!

And now the homework. Seems priced reasonably for its condition to me. But now is not the time to celebrate. The coin needs to be weighed and also looked at while in hand by another set of eyes (we can only ascertain so much from photos) and I would just to make sure have an XRF test done and make sure the results match a genuine specimen. You only have 30 days to do this. A good fake can fool even some very experienced collectors.

Being your seller has a 99.9% rating with well over 20,000 feedback points, I would not be very worried. Imho, the coin is legit as I stated before. But, even I would still do the work on my end regardless of how good things look at the onset. It is just to make sure.

Now that you did win the coin, I am just curious as to your plan for it? Put it in an album? Put it in a Whitman plastic holder? Have it graded?

[LILpitik]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:08 PM, powermad5000 said:

The win!!!

And now the homework. Seems priced reasonably for its condition to me. But now is not the time to celebrate. The coin needs to be weighed and also looked at while in hand by another set of eyes (we can only ascertain so much from photos) and I would just to make sure have an XRF test done and make sure the results match a genuine specimen. You only have 30 days to do this. A good fake can fool even some very experienced collectors.

Being your seller has a 99.9% rating with well over 20,000 feedback points, I would not be very worried. Imho, the coin is legit as I stated before. But, even I would still do the work on my end regardless of how good things look at the onset. It is just to make sure.

Now that you did win the coin, I am just curious as to your plan for it? Put it in an album? Put it in a Whitman plastic holder? Have it graded?

I've contacted the seller, requesting a photo with the coin being weighed for an added authenticity check. I plan to make the payment right after receiving the picture.I think I might have it graded in the future, I'm leaning towards NGC, though PCGS is also a viable option.

[powermad5000]

While there is nothing wrong with that request of the seller, you should take the coin to a local coin shop and have it weighed there. In this hobby, you need to verify things yourself and see them with your own eyes. And get second opinions and in some cases even third opinions. Weighing needs to be done by an accurate scale and a calibrated scale otherwise, the displayed weight is just a number.

I am only saying this as you do not want to go through all the process of winning the auction, taking out an NGC membership (or you could submit a single coin through a dealer that will submit it to NGC for you which I would recommend in this case to save money), the grading fee, the administrative fee, and the return shipping costs only to have the coin return in a "body bag" stating it could not be graded or authenticated.

[LILpitik]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:02 PM, powermad5000 said:

While there is nothing wrong with that request of the seller, you should take the coin to a local coin shop and have it weighed there. In this hobby, you need to verify things yourself and see them with your own eyes. And get second opinions and in some cases even third opinions. Weighing needs to be done by an accurate scale and a calibrated scale otherwise, the displayed weight is just a number.

I am only saying this as you do not want to go through all the process of winning the auction, taking out an NGC membership (or you could submit a single coin through a dealer that will submit it to NGC for you which I would recommend in this case to save money), the grading fee, the administrative fee, and the return shipping costs only to have the coin return in a "body bag" stating it could not be graded or authenticated.

I have a nice scale that really accurate,it is used for coffe and it displays measurements down to the thousandth of a gram.The problem would be the XRF scan but I don't think i have to go that far.I am most afraid of getting a details grade instead of a straight grade because of that scratch on the cheek but i still got it for a decent price.

[EagleRJO]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:31 AM, LILpitik said:

Hey everyone, I'm back with an update on the coin situation. Snagged it for $308, and I'm thinking that's a decent price. What's your take on it?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/196133948972 

On 12/22/2023 at 4:55 PM, LILpitik said:

I have a nice scale that really accurate,it is used for coffe and it displays measurements down to the thousandth of a gram.The problem would be the XRF scan but I don't think i have to go that far.I am most afraid of getting a details grade instead of a straight grade because of that scratch on the cheek but i still got it for a decent price.

Seems like you got it for a pretty good price if legit, even with the scratch on the cheek which to me looks pretty pronounced from the pics and is in a prominent focal area of the coin for that series.  So if it looks that way in-hand would likely result in a Details grade, which often knocks off 1/4 to 1/3 the value..

I would just weigh the coin when received, and wouldn't worry at this point about XRF testing unless something is really off like the weight or appearance.  It's likely valuable enough to submit for grading, even with the scratch, which would also answer many of the questions.  Check back if you do submit the coin with the results, which is always interesting to get feedback on, and can be done through a local dealer.

[GoldFinger1969]

LiLPit....you didn't tell us how long you have been collecting Morgans or coins in general....have you bought raw or certified in the past....are you looking to focus in on 1 or 2 coin series ?

Lots of resources for whatever your intentions are here at the NGC Forums. 

 

[LILpitik]

On 12/23/2023 at 4:21 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

LiLPit....you didn't tell us how long you have been collecting Morgans or coins in general....have you bought raw or certified in the past....are you looking to focus in on 1 or 2 coin series ?

Lots of resources for whatever your intentions are here at the NGC Forums. 

 

Yes I have seen them,they're quite helpful.Also this is my first raw morgan dollar bought.

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by LILpitik
Forgot to add some details.

[LILpitik]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:29 AM, EagleRJO said:

Seems like you got it for a pretty good price if legit, even with the scratch on the cheek which to me looks pretty pronounced from the pics and is in a prominent focal area of the coin for that series.  So if it looks that way in-hand would likely result in a Details grade, which often knocks off 1/4 to 1/3 the value..

I would just weigh the coin when received, and wouldn't worry at this point about XRF testing unless something is really off like the weight or appearance.  It's likely valuable enough to submit for grading, even with the scratch, which would also answer many of the questions.  Check back if you do submit the coin with the results, which is always interesting to get feedback on, and can be done through a local dealer.

 

On 12/22/2023 at 9:02 PM, powermad5000 said:

While there is nothing wrong with that request of the seller, you should take the coin to a local coin shop and have it weighed there. In this hobby, you need to verify things yourself and see them with your own eyes. And get second opinions and in some cases even third opinions. Weighing needs to be done by an accurate scale and a calibrated scale otherwise, the displayed weight is just a number.

I am only saying this as you do not want to go through all the process of winning the auction, taking out an NGC membership (or you could submit a single coin through a dealer that will submit it to NGC for you which I would recommend in this case to save money), the grading fee, the administrative fee, and the return shipping costs only to have the coin return in a "body bag" stating it could not be graded or authenticated.

Here are some other pictures that i have asked for.What do you think?                                                

[powermad5000]

Well, if your scale is accurate it is supposed to weigh 26.73g so the weight seems to be just about right on. As far as cleaning, that is something we generally cannot tell from photos unless it was very badly cleaned, harsh, or mechanically cleaned as in a wire brush (known as whizzed). A light cleaning often cannot be seen from photos and sometimes the hairlines only appear when the coin is tilted in hand towards a light source and then the hairlines appear. As for the scratch, if the graders determine it was caused in the mint bag by another coin, it could get straight graded.

Well, I would pay the seller and find a dealer to submit through as a single coin submission. That will save you the most possible on grading expenses. I also would like to see an update once it returns so we can see the results.

[LILpitik]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:38 AM, powermad5000 said:

Well, if your scale is accurate it is supposed to weigh 26.73g so the weight seems to be just about right on. As far as cleaning, that is something we generally cannot tell from photos unless it was very badly cleaned, harsh, or mechanically cleaned as in a wire brush (known as whizzed). A light cleaning often cannot be seen from photos and sometimes the hairlines only appear when the coin is tilted in hand towards a light source and then the hairlines appear. As for the scratch, if the graders determine it was caused in the mint bag by another coin, it could get straight graded.

Well, I would pay the seller and find a dealer to submit through as a single coin submission. That will save you the most possible on grading expenses. I also would like to see an update once it returns so we can see the results.

I will,I just did not see the same luster on it in these pictures.

[powermad5000]

I wish you the best of luck!

I know my first "major" purchase that was my first submission didn't go as well as I wanted. I paid $1,000 for an 1879 CC Morgan and it came back XF details improperly cleaned, so I hope yours turns out well. I still have that coin and it was a huge learning lesson for me. I advanced far beyond that coin at this point and value the lessons it taught me even if it was learned the hard way.

Hopefully yours turns out favorable. To me it still seems to have original surfaces, but as I stated earlier, a previous cleaning would not be able to be ascertained from photos. Only with the coin in hand.

[LILpitik]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:15 AM, powermad5000 said:

I wish you the best of luck!

I know my first "major" purchase that was my first submission didn't go as well as I wanted. I paid $1,000 for an 1879 CC Morgan and it came back XF details improperly cleaned, so I hope yours turns out well. I still have that coin and it was a huge learning lesson for me. I advanced far beyond that coin at this point and value the lessons it taught me even if it was learned the hard way.

Hopefully yours turns out favorable. To me it still seems to have original surfaces, but as I stated earlier, a previous cleaning would not be able to be ascertained from photos. Only with the coin in hand.

Thanks! This could turn out to be a valuable learning experience for me as well. By the way, how long has it been since you made that significant purchase?

[powermad5000]

Roughly 10 years of submitting coins to NGC. I am at about 500 slabs now.