1943 Cameroon 50 Centimes - pattern coin? 0

[JanUys74]

Hi all,

I found this 1943 Cameroon 50 centimes coin in a lot of 300+ international coins I bought recently. I see these were minted in bronze only but yet mine is silver in color. Upon inspection I also noticed a stamp PATT on the Patriarchal cross on the reverse. The coin appears to be uncirculated with bag marks, the strike is not too great.

What is of interest to me is that the engraver was Coert Laurens Steynberg, a renowned South African sculptor and also the designer of the springbok antelope we find on Krugerrands.

My question - Is this possibly a pattern coin? If so, should I submit to NGC to authenticate?

Any advice or remarks are welcomed, thanks.

Regards

Jan Uys

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by JanUys74

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:12 AM, JanUys74 said:

Hi all,

I found this 1943 Cameroon 50 centimes coin in a lot of 300+ international coins I bought recently. I see these were minted in bronze only but yet mine is silver in color. Upon inspection I also noticed a stamp PATT on the Patriarchal cross on the reverse. The coin appears to be uncirculated with bag marks, the strike is not too great.

What is of interest to me is that the engraver was Coert Laurens Steynberg, a renowned South African sculptor and also the designer of the springbok antelope we find on Krugerrands.

My question - Is this possibly a pattern coin? If so, should I submit to NGC to authenticate?

Any advice or remarks are welcomed, thanks.

Regards

Jan Uys

What is the weight, thickness, and diameter?

Looking around the web I've found some other pattern coins of this type, yours doesn't match up with any of the other examples I've seen, and given the strange wear/weakness it makes me suspicious. I'd have to lean towards this not being authentic unless better information can be provided. 

[Greenstang]

Note that the genuine coin says ”PAT.”

The OPs coin says “PATT”

Not sure if they would use both spellings or not.

[JanUys74]

On 12/20/2023 at 1:54 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

What is the weight, thickness, and diameter?

Looking around the web I've found some other pattern coins of this type, yours doesn't match up with any of the other examples I've seen, and given the strange wear/weakness it makes me suspicious. I'd have to lean towards this not being authentic unless better information can be provided. 

Thanks Mike,

Thickness: 1.3mm
Diameter: 20.3mm

I don't have a scale to weigh it sorry. 

 

 

[JanUys74]

On 12/20/2023 at 2:10 PM, Greenstang said:

Note that the genuine coin says ”PAT.”

The OPs coin says “PATT”

Not sure if they would use both spellings or not.

The picture posted by Mike comes from a NumisBids lot from 2014 if I remember correctly.

I'm curious to know how the PAT would have been punched/stamped

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:35 AM, JanUys74 said:

Thanks Mike,

Thickness: 1.3mm
Diameter: 20.3mm

I don't have a scale to weigh it sorry. 

With the better images the design on yours is looking closer to the one I posted, which isn't a great pic either. Based on the information given the diameter on your piece is (20.3mm) compared to what the listing I posted states (22mm), that would lead me to speculate that what you have is a normal coin on which someone stamped "PATT", as the listed diameter for the circulating coinage is 20.2mm. The counterstamp being different is not a good sign either, but not necessarily a deal breaker, and the off color (if a normal circulation coin) could be due to several factors.

The listed weight for the circulating coinage is 2.760g, the weight listed for the example I posted is 2.63g, there is probably some overlap there with the tolerances but it would still be useful information to have. Seems a little odd to me that the pattern would be 2mm larger than the circulating coinage but not out of the realm of possibilities. I would see if you can find additional examples of this pattern coin listed and gather any information available on them, the diameter variation is what I would be trying to verify. You currently have a nothingburger but I would still put a little more legwork into gathering some data.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Clarification

[Mike Meenderink]

If you can afford the submission fees and not be financially burdened by submitting the coin I say just submit it and stop wondering. This is what coin grading and certification is for. If it turns out to be nothing then at least you learned something. If it turns out to be something, then you will be very proud of yourself. To me the knowledge is the best reward so if you do have a special coin after all it would just be the icing on the cake since you learned so much during the process of research and submission of the coin. Goodluck....cheers!

[RWB]

Why use an English language abbreviation on a French language coin? Shouldn't it read "ESSAI" or something similar -- if anything at all ?

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/20/2023 at 8:23 AM, RWB said:

Why use an English language abbreviation on a French language coin? Shouldn't it read "ESSAI" or something similar -- if anything at all ?

The circulating coinage was produced in South Africa from what I read, that could explain the use of "PAT." or "PATT". If the patterns were produced there that is.

[JanUys74]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:18 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

With the better images the design on yours is looking closer to the one I posted, which isn't a great pic either. Based on the information given the diameter on your piece is (20.3mm) compared to what the listing I posted states (22mm), that would lead me to speculate that what you have is a normal coin on which someone stamped "PATT", as the listed diameter for the circulating coinage is 20.2mm. The counterstamp being different is not a good sign either, but not necessarily a deal breaker, and the off color (if a normal circulation coin) could be due to several factors.

The listed weight for the circulating coinage is 2.760g, the weight listed for the example I posted is 2.63g, there is probably some overlap there with the tolerances but it would still be useful information to have. Seems a little odd to me that the pattern would be 2mm larger than the circulating coinage but not out of the realm of possibilities. I would see if you can find additional examples of this pattern coin listed and gather any information available on them, the diameter variation is what I would be trying to verify. You currently have nothingburger but I would still put a little more legwork into gathering some data.

Thanks Mike.

[Mike Meenderink]

On 12/20/2023 at 6:09 AM, JanUys74 said:

Seems a little odd to me that the pattern would be 2mm larger than the circulating coinage but not out of the realm of possibilities

Not really odd on trial pattern coins mints would have tried different diameters, alloys and thicknesses as well.

[JanUys74]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:23 PM, RWB said:

Why use an English language abbreviation on a French language coin? Shouldn't it read "ESSAI" or something similar -- if anything at all ?

During WW2, Britain and France had difficulties getting their coinage to their colonies in Africa. Some of these where outsourced the the South African Mint, including this coin. You'll notice the S.A. mint mark

[RWB]

SA Mint patterns look much like London or other major mint pattern pieces. None of the photos show pieces of similar fabric. (Merely being highly skeptical of "pattern piece" status.)

Edited December 20, 2023 by RWB

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:09 AM, JanUys74 said:

Thanks Mike.

Once you gather some more information you can call and email NGC directly to see if this is something they would even consider taking a look at, send them pics, etc.. They'll take a pass on stuff like this sometimes due to lack of information/documentation, other examples, etc.. If they tell you no, it'll save you the cost of blindly sending it in, if they say yes then at least you know they'll take a look. Also, I don't rule out the possibility of a different diameter or off metal patterns, or whatever these might be, that's part of what I'd be researching when looking into to the possibly different diameter patterns. If you're lucky there these will be documented in a reference somewhere but you may have to translate it from French or some other language. The auction listing in the picture I posted hints at the pattern in the listing possibly being KM-E4 "but no metal stated", that could be another avenue of research.

EDIT TO ADD: On some level the burden of proof is on you, the more information you have and the more you know what you're talking about the better your odds of having NGC take a look at and authenticate a piece if there is little to no documentation. It can be a struggle with world coins sometimes.  

Good Luck. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike

[Henri Charriere]

Something about the animal used looks awfully familiar...  🤔 

[JanUys74]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:35 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Once you gather some more information you can call and email NGC directly to see if this is something they would even consider taking a look at, send them pics, etc.. They'll take a pass on stuff like this sometimes due to lack of information/documentation, other examples, etc.. If they tell you no, it'll save you the cost of blindly sending it in, if they say yes then at least you know they'll take a look. Also, I don't rule out the possibility of a different diameter or off metal patterns, or whatever these might be, that's part of what I'd be researching when looking into to the possibly different diameter patterns. If you're lucky there these will be documented in a reference somewhere but you may have to translate it from French or some other language. The auction listing in the picture I posted hints at the pattern in the listing possibly being KM-E4 "but no metal stated", that could be another avenue of research.

EDIT TO ADD: On some level the burden of proof is on you, the more information you have and the more you know what you're talking about the better your odds of having NGC take a look at and authenticate a piece if there is little to no documentation. It can be a struggle with world coins sometimes.  

Good Luck. 

I'll consult some local numismatists and possibly the Mint as well.

I was preparing a a submission to NGC anyway. Was hoping to include this one as well, but I will hang back for next year.

Thank you for the advice.

[Henri Charriere]

I am glad you decided to hang back on this.  Submissions, contrary to what some "nattering nabobs of negativism" may believe, should not be regarded as a learning experience.  Exhorbitant cost (in the case of unknown coins) is but one consideration.  What will you write onto the submission form when asked what the value of your coin is for insurance purposes?  No, the correct approach is to gather information and develop leads. First identify what you have, then submit it for confirmation if the circumstances warrant it.  In light of what's been said, I would still hold back. Submissions, I read somewhere today from an authoritative source, can run from as little as $30. to $100.  And I have heard members here say they would hesitate submitting anything whose value is less than $150 to $200.  Find out what you have first, feel free to share your findings here and perhaps someone would be willing to make an informed decision for you. Good luck.  

[gmarguli]

On 12/20/2023 at 1:12 AM, JanUys74 said:

I see these were minted in bronze only but yet mine is silver in color. Upon inspection I also noticed a stamp PATT on the Patriarchal cross on the reverse.

 

My question - Is this possibly a pattern coin? If so, should I submit to NGC to authenticate?

I'd submit it. If real, it's likely a $1,000 coin. 

The pattern in Krause is supposedly chrome-steel, matching you "silver" color. Given patterns are known with PAT. stamped on the reverse, PATT being stamped is not out of the question. Also, look at the T on the one someone else posted. Appears to be stamped twice, indicating hand stamping and some variation in what people would use. FYI, I've had the same type pattern notated not just differently, but in different languages, both of which were not the language of the country of the pattern coin. 

My experience has been that PCGS is more willing to take chances on esoteric items than NGC. I don't know the current stance of NGC, but items they called unverifiable they have both charged for and not charged for, so you may want to ask them if you're going to get charged if NGC can't make a decision. PCGS generally says No Service / Refund.