Damage on a PF-70 graded coin? 1 1

[EhPlusCoins]

I recently purchased an NGC-graded 2019 $5 Silver Maple Leaf with a phonograph privy graded as PF-70/RP-70 from a very highly rated seller on eBay.

When the coin arrived today I was surprised to see I received a different coin than was pictured in the listing. My coin has some kind of damage on the reverse. It looks like maybe the reverse proof finish has been chipped or perhaps naturally flaked off in a few spots. See the attached photo which you can also view on the NGC registry: https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/coins/3100872/  The black specks behind her majesty’s hair is the damage in question.

This leads me to a few questions:

1) Are the reverse proof finishes on Canadian Maples known to flake off like this over time?

2) Is there a way for me to identify which registry photos were uploaded by NGC and which were uploaded by former owners of a coin? (I want to know if the registry photo that shows the damage represents what the coin looked like at the time it was graded.)

3) Is it possible to learn when a coin was graded?

Thanks in advance!

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by EhPlusCoins

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/18/2023 at 2:03 PM, EhPlusCoins said:

I recently purchased an NGC-graded 2019 $5 Silver Maple Leaf with a phonograph privy graded as PF-70/RP-70 from a very highly rated seller on eBay.

When the coin arrived today I was surprised to see I received a different coin than was pictured in the listing. My coin has some kind of damage on the reverse. It looks like maybe the reverse proof finish has been chipped or perhaps naturally flaked off in a few spots. See the attached photo which you can also view on the NGC registry: https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/coins/3100872/  The black specks behind her majesty’s hair is the damage in question.

This leads me to a few questions:

1) Are the reverse proof finishes on Canadian Maples known to flake off like this over time?

2) Is there a way for me to identify which registry photos were uploaded by NGC and which were uploaded by former owners of a coin? (I want to know if the registry photo that shows the damage represents what the coin looked like at the time it was graded.)

3) Is it possible to learn when a coin was graded?

Thanks in advance!

 

It's more likely that those are "unfinished" areas on the die, obstructed areas, or spots where the etching/frosting fell off or was damaged, and are showing up as black spots in the fields of the coin. NGC, seemingly, doesn't detract for flaws such as this since they are not technically damage. 

Only NGC can load images on their website. No way to tell if the images of coins in registry sets are of the actual coin being used in the set but only the registry set "owner" can upload images, or someone using their password, NGC doesn't mess with individuals registry set images.

If you contact NGC they can give you a date range of when the coin was graded usually. I think.

It's common for some of the larger sellers to use stock images, if the seller has a return policy I would consider sending this one back. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Clarification

[RWB]

On 12/18/2023 at 2:03 PM, EhPlusCoins said:

Are the reverse proof finishes on Canadian Maples known to flake off like this over time?

A "reverse proof" surface is part of the coin's metal and not something applied after the piece was struck, so there is nothing to "flake off."

Any part of the surface can be damaged or have debris on it. That it likely what you are seeing.

If the coin is not what you expected, get a refund.

[Henri Charriere]

Unfortunately, I see two, actually three problems, here

Your "highly-rated" seller will claim he did not grade the coin. The Mint will claim the coin is no longer in OGP and was no longer a recent purchase.  I seriously doubt anyone would own up to admitting PMD is common and take no steps to address the problem.

Two members have suggested returning the item.  A reputable dealer, mindful of reviews and reputations will likely comply.

[powermad5000]

It sounds like the seller you purchased this from was using "stock" photos. Did the seller have more than one of these for sale in the listing? If so, that would explain the difference in the coin in hand and the photo on the sellers listing page. I typically will not buy from a seller that uses stock photos as you will not get the coin in the photo (which the seller is likely to use the best coin in the lot to take the photo). Hopefully you bought from a seller that accepts returns as it sounds like you are not happy with the coin that arrived at your door. I would return the coin and maybe look for a seller that is not using stock photos and is selling only one of these coins.

As for the registry photos, I am not a registry participant, but I have looked into the process. Nobody can "upload" photos to the registry or to NGC. You can upload photos here in the forum, but not for any grading/certification/registry purposes (I do not know how the PCGS end of this works). You go and look up the NGC cert number on their verification and then you can click a button to claim the coin as yours and add it to your registry set.

You can contact NGC customer service and ask for a specific date of when a coin was graded, but I am not sure how this fits into what is taking place here. You can "estimate" an approximate range of the date when it was graded based on the cert number on the slab and where the submission numbers are starting out at now although this won't be helpful if you don't submit your own coins to NGC.

[VKurtB]

My 2 cents: Stop pursuing PF70 coins. It's a scam, through and through.

[Coinbuf]

Beware stock photos, this is a common tactic for ebay sellers who have hundreds or thousands of these to sell and don't want to photograph each one.

[zadok]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:13 PM, Coinbuf said:

Beware stock photos, this is a common tactic for ebay sellers who have hundreds or thousands of these to sell and don't want to photograph each one.

...yep especially ampex....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/18/2023 at 2:03 PM, EhPlusCoins said:

I recently purchased an NGC-graded 2019 $5 Silver Maple Leaf with a phonograph privy graded as PF-70/RP-70 from a very highly rated seller on eBay.hen the coin arrived today I was surprised to see I received a different coin than was pictured in the listing. My coin has some kind of damage on the reverse.

Always ask if the coin shown is what you are getting.  Also make sure there's a decent return policy. 

Silver coins CAN change over time.  If a silver coin is dated and flawless, less chance of it changing than a coin from the current or last year.  A 10-year old coins less likely to exhibit changes than a 1-year old.

I like to have a 70 grade for some modern coins, especially silver commemoratives.  They look nice, especially the reverse proofs.  However, once you get 1 in a series you might find it cost-effective to look at 69's since they look indistinguishable from the 70's but will cost considerably less.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/18/2023 at 5:06 PM, VKurtB said:

My 2 cents: Stop pursuing PF70 coins. It's a scam, through and through.

Flawless proof coins exist otherwise they would not have been awarded the highly-desirable "perfect" PF-70 distinction.  Is it a scam?  I cannot see any TPGS willfully and voluntarily putting their reputation on the line to get involved in any such sordid scheme.  If a collector chooses to involve himself in this specialty pursuit, there are two primary factors to consider:  1- if not specified in the ad, contact the seller to insure the coin you see is, in fact, the coin you will get, and 2-  does the seller have a return policy with a realistic time frame.  Prominent, long-term dealers with impeccable credentials and reputations will have no problem boasting: "If you are not completely satisfied with your purchase, return it for a complete refund."  Every coin collector should be aware of the possibility that a problem in their purchase may develop later on down the line if not for them, than for their heirs.  I can recall dealers in the 1960's "assuring" me that so-called carbon spots in circa 1950's proof sets, specifically those stapled together in flimsy glassine holders packaged in square flat packs, were a common phenomenon.  I have no opinion on the matter, one way or the other except to say U.S..Mint sales tactics of late are a bit aggressive and their prices are exorbitant if not outright extortionate. After all, if you are a collector of annual sets, in particular, what choice do you have but to continue to pay the ever spiraling issue price if you wish to maintain the momentum of your holdings. 

[VKurtB]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:41 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Flawless proof coins exist otherwise they would not have been awarded the highly-desirable "perfect" PF-70 distinction.  Is it a scam?  I cannot see any TPGS willfully and voluntarily putting their reputation on the line to get involved in any such sordid scheme.  If a collector chooses to involve himself in this specialty pursuit, there are two primary factors to consider:  1- if not specified in the ad, contact the seller to insure the coin you see is, in fact, the coin you will get, and 2-  does the seller have a return policy with a realistic time frame.  Prominent, long-term dealers with impeccable credentials and reputations will have no problem boasting: "If you are not completely satisfied with your purchase, return it for a complete refund."  Every coin collector should be aware of the possibility that a problem in their purchase may develop later on down the line if not for them, than for their heirs.  I can recall dealers in the 1960's "assuring" me that so-called carbon spots in circa 1950's proof sets, specifically those stapled together in flimsy glassine holders packaged in square flat packs, were a common phenomenon.  I have no opinion on the matter, one way or the other except to say U.S..Mint sales tactics of late are a bit aggressive and their prices are exorbitant if not outright extortionate. After all, if you are a collector of annual sets, in particular, what choice do you have but to continue to pay the ever spiraling issue price if you wish to maintain the momentum of your holdings. 

Apparently, SOME people here believe the world ended in 1964, and they define their sets as complete because they’re complete to 1964. Guess what, Bucko. They’re not. 

[“”]

On 12/18/2023 at 4:23 PM, powermad5000 said:

It sounds like the seller you purchased this from was using "stock" photos. Did the seller have more than one of these for sale in the listing? If so, that would explain the difference in the coin in hand and the photo on the sellers listing page. I typically will not buy from a seller that uses stock photos as you will not get the coin in the photo (which the seller is likely to use the best coin in the lot to take the photo). Hopefully you bought from a seller that accepts returns as it sounds like you are not happy with the coin that arrived at your door. I would return the coin and maybe look for a seller that is not using stock photos and is selling only one of these coins.

As for the registry photos, I am not a registry participant, but I have looked into the process. Nobody can "upload" photos to the registry or to NGC. You can upload photos here in the forum, but not for any grading/certification/registry purposes (I do not know how the PCGS end of this works). You go and look up the NGC cert number on their verification and then you can click a button to claim the coin as yours and add it to your registry set.

You can contact NGC customer service and ask for a specific date of when a coin was graded, but I am not sure how this fits into what is taking place here. You can "estimate" an approximate range of the date when it was graded based on the cert number on the slab and where the submission numbers are starting out at now although this won't be helpful if you don't submit your own coins to NGC.

Yes you can upload your own photos to your registry. Once a PCGS coin is confirmed and accepted into your registry set you are free to upload those photos as well.