Help in How to figure out a copy from genuine 1 1

[Hend]

Hello,

 

Would the coin lose some of its features because it's old ?? Bellow are the photos

and how i can differentiate if its a copy 

 

 

[Mike Meenderink]

Ok so I can pretty much tell you that this is a fake. This is a counterfeit 1877 1/2 Dollar Barber Trial Pattern coin.

1877 50C Half Dollar, Judd-1536, Pollock-1704, High R.7

 

EXTREMELY RARE

 

Very few are known to exist (3) and this is NOT one of them. It would not look anything like that. It would be perfect and no one would ever let a coin like that into circulation PERIOD> Its a fake. Id bet my cats on it. It would look like the example in the photo you posted.. perfect. Coins such as this were specially made for the director of the mint in 1877 Henry Linderman by Chief engraver William Barber and his assistant engraver George Morgan. These two were always competing to impress the Mint director with their new designs. This gave Director Linderman and a few other savvy mint insiders a great opportunity to obtain these rare and beautiful coins for their private collections. Director Linderman died in1879. The coins remained in his collection until a man named Lyman Low tried to sell them. The government stepped in and confiscated them as government property. The coins were then seen again for sale in 1888 By J W Scott where they were all sold and placed in private collections. One coin was offered for sale again with Stacks in 1999 and sold for over 15k.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[Sandon]

    Authentication of coins and detecting counterfeits is a complex subject that requires much knowledge, experience, and sometimes special equipment to master. There are many different types of counterfeits, as well as fraudulent alterations of genuine coins, and they have been made as long as the genuine coins themselves. If you are a new collector, it is essential that you first learn the basics of U.S. coins and collecting them, such as through the resources identified in the forum topics to which I referred you in your previous thread. These basics include becoming familiar with what genuine pieces are supposed to look like. Bearing this in mind, you can obtain an overview of this subject at NGC Counterfeit Detection | Identify Counterfeit Coins | NGC (ngccoin.com).

   As discussed in your previous thread on the "Ask NGC/NCS" forum, the piece you posted is almost certainly a counterfeit of a rare U.S. pattern coin. Patterns are collected mostly by a select group of advanced--and usually wealthy--collectors. They are strikings of coin designs or compositions that were not adopted for circulation, and in most cases only a few pieces were struck. Consequently, they are a prime target for counterfeiters. The PCGS certificate verification information for the genuine piece you included indicates that it is an example of J-1535 in the Judd pattern reference and that this example, graded PR 62, sold for $15,000 at Heritage's (a major numismatic auction house) auction of the Bob R. Simpson collection on September 17, 2020. https://www.pcgs.com/cert/40322938. If you click the included link to the auction catalog description, you will find that there are only three known genuine examples of this exact variety, one of which is impounded in a museum. Such pieces are seldom found outside of the holdings of advanced collectors or the inventories of major dealers, and nowadays most have been graded and encapsulated by a major third-party grading service such as NGC, PCGS or ANACS. (Where did you obtain this one?)   

On 10/12/2023 at 5:25 PM, Hend said:

Would the coin lose some of its features because it's old ?

   Coins lose detail, not from age--there are coins thousands of years old in uncirculated condition--but from circulation wear. (The grading of coins is one of the subjects with which you must become familiar to become successful as a collector.) Such wear generally does not appear mostly at the center of the coin, which rather indicates a weak strike, buckled dies, or other problems in the manufacturing process. In fact, the weak and "mushy" details are one of the factors that identify this piece as a counterfeit.  Compare them to the sharp, crisp, and even details of the genuine piece in the certificate. Additionally, the genuine pieces are "proofs", which are special strikings with mirrored fields for collectors and officials. They are carefully made and would not be weak in the centers. Your piece also shows some wear and contact marks that seldom appear on genuine pattern pieces, which were collectors' items that would usually have been cared for from the time they were made. (Your piece also shows evidence of an abrasive "cleaning". Note the whitish appearance and fine scratches in the fields, which are indicative of hairlines from such a "cleaning".  Unfortunately, many genuine coins have also been "cleaned".)

   I hope this helps.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Sandon

[powermad5000]

To the OP, many factors come into play when it comes to counterfeits, replicas, and the like. The alloy (mix of metals), the dies used to make the fakes, how the fakes get struck, where the fakes get struck, etc. There are even some with artificial toning, and artificial wear meant to further deceive. Sometimes it cannot be determined from just a photo. And definitely anybody untrained to spot fakes is probably going to fail the test especially at first.

On a coin such as this, it is a little easier to determine when there are only 3 known to exist. In your initial post in another forum, I just knew that there are no Judd Trial Pattern coins floating around in the wild, and especially acquired for very little money (I hope you didn't pay a lot for these coins) so it was not hard to decide the coin you presented was not legitimate.

Be aware as well that there are "fantasy" coins and exonumia that resembles highly rare coins, but these as well should say COPY on them if they are made to resemble the original coin and its details. There are Chinese fakes that do not have the word COPY on them as there is no law in China requiring them to put the word onto the coin, so it is another thing to be aware of.

Edited October 13, 2023 by powermad5000

[EagleRJO]

On 10/12/2023 at 5:25 PM, Hend said:

... how i can differentiate if its a copy

Sandon et al. gave some very good advice about counterfeits, which can be very difficult to detect sometimes.  You would have to spend countless hours learning about particular coins, the counterfeits of those coins and die indicators as well as spend significant amounts of time examining coins.

You would also need die variety references, tools more advanced collectors have, and methods for determining the specific gravity of coins.  And just looking at pictures of coins is sometimes not sufficient to really tell if a particular coin may be a counterfeit.

So that is a decision each collector needs to make based on their collecting style and aptitude for learning about counterfeits.  And newer collectors or those not willing to accept some risk should just stick with coins already certified, particularly for more valuable coins.

On 10/12/2023 at 10:05 PM, Sandon said:

 Authentication of coins and detecting counterfeits is a complex subject that requires much knowledge, experience, and sometimes special equipment to master.

By "special equipment" I assume you are referring to a very accurate scale, magnifying loupes, calipers, a magnet, a scope and things needed to determine SG which more serious collectors should have anyway.

Edited October 14, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Hend]

Thank you all, 

This was very helpful, specially for a biggner like me.

and no I didn't pay alot, Actually it worth it, i mean the experibce as it was  very interesting, the process of learning about coins and examine them.

Thanks 🙏 

[Halbrook Family]

Would this fake be made from silver? When people make fake coins like this do they usually use the right material? 

[Greenstang]

Quote

Would this fake be made from silver?

Hard to tell without a weight but there are many counterfeits made from both silver and gold. 
so you can’t always tell by the material about whether it is legitimate or not.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/13/2023 at 3:25 AM, powermad5000 said:

Be aware as well that there are "fantasy" coins and exonumia that resembles highly rare coins ...

Which fantasy coins or tokens are you referring to which resemble legitimate rare coins?

As far as I know those are terms related to pieces which never existed.  But that wouldn't have anything to do with the subject coin or something the op would need to be aware of.

On 10/14/2023 at 10:02 AM, edhalbrook said:

Would this fake be made from silver? When people make fake coins like this do they usually use the right material? 

It could be made of silver to more closely resemble legit pieces.  If you weigh the piece with an accurate scale that could give you an indication as it should weigh about 12.50g +/- 0.10g.

But a correct weight doesn't necessarily mean it's silver as off-metal counterfeits sometimes are made with a different thickness that results in a close overall weight.  In that case a shop with an XRF tester could tell you or the specific gravity would need to be checked.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by EagleRJO