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Who can tell me what this is where its from and why it exists. First correct answer wins smart guy of the week. It's copper is the only clue you get.
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Started by Mike Meenderink ,

20 posts in this topic

Sandon

Sandon

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Posted

   Your photos didn't post on my computer, only the file names ending with "Picture 3 of 3" and "Picture 2 of 3", which I assume include the name of the item you are quizzing the forum about.  I won't name them in case others can see the photos as intended.

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Mike Meenderink

Mike Meenderink

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On 10/9/2023 at 2:43 PM, Sandon said:

   Your photos didn't post on my computer, only the file names ending with "Picture 3 of 3" and "Picture 2 of 3", which I assume include the name of the item you are quizzing the forum about.  I won't name them in case others can see the photos as intended.

Computers can throw a wrench in anything...lol If you know which I would already assume from all here you could figure this out anyway don't say anything. :)

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Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

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On 10/9/2023 at 4:57 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

PS No coin app in the world will correctly identify this so don't waste your time trying that  ....

That's because it is comprised of no part of any coin, as that term is used by hobbyists, presently.  [If I were willing to sacrifice my vaunted "Rising Star" status, so benevolently bestowed upon me by our hosts, I would recklessly suggest they are parts of a clay cuneiform tablet -- or an inscription found on a counterfeit Ming Dynasty vase discovered among the personal effects of that terra cotta contingent discovered in the Forbidden Palace].  🤣

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cobymordet

cobymordet

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Many ways to skin thy pretty kitty:

What: Netherlands East Indies Java Bonk Emergency Coin 2 Stuiver 1810 (8gr.)

Who: Netherlands Colonizers

Where:East Indies / Java Ceylon, etc...

When: 1600-1900 (approx.)

Why:

In the late 1700s and early 1800s, Dutch rule over what is now Indonesia was disrupted by the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars.  The Netherland East Indies were a prosperous colony and with important trade goods, but coinage shipments from the colonizing power were almost completely disrupted due to the wars and occupation.  Emergency coinage was needed to supply the small change to allow commerce to continue.  Large copper bars were imported, typically from Japan, and cut into rough segments which were stamped with the year and denomination. The piece above, for example is a 2 stuiver copper “coin” from 1801, and weighs 17 grams.

According to this source, copper “bonk” money was produced in three distinct intervals.  (“Bonk” is Dutch for a piece or a lump of something.)  The first was during the Batavian Republic, which was installed when the Netherlands was conquered by revolutionary France, and lasted from 1795-1806.  (Bonk coins were made throughout this period starting in 1796.)  Though nominally allied with France, the Netherlands still traded extensively with England, often using then-neutral Germany as a transit point.  Reciprocal economic boycotts between France and England made Dutch maritime trade difficult and disrupted their control of the East Indies.

The second period was the Kingdom of Holland, in which copper bar money was produced dated 1807-1810.  The above bar is from this period.  Emperor Napoleon of France was dissatisfied with the lack of compliance of the Batavian Republic, and re-instituted a monarchy under his brother, Louis Bonaparte.  His brother proved too ambitious, and attempted to establish himself as a popular ruler with his own local base of support, even if it meant resisting Napoleon’s wishes.  For example, he declined to institute the conscription used by the French Republic, as it would have been very unpopular with the Dutch, in spite of Napoleon’s urgent need for more troops to fight against the British.  Dutch control of Java was tenuous during this period, and it lost it entirely after the British invasion of Java in 1811.  The Netherlands only regained their colonial possession after signing a treaty with the UK in 1814, after Napoleon’s first defeat and exile.  Louis Bonaparte had to abdicate and flee the Netherlands in 1810 when his brother occupied the country and annexed it to France proper.  (In spite of the conflict between the two brothers, Louis Bonaparte’s son took advantage of his connection to his famous uncle, later ruling France as Napoleon III.)

The third and last run of copper bar money was produced in 1818-9 under the Kingdom of the Netherlands.  Weights were inconsistent during these various periods, and contemporary lightweight counterfeits existed.  Copper was in high demand during the Napoleonic wars due to its use in copper sheathing for ships, and the price shot up in the early 1800s, making some copper coins suddenly worth more as melt than as money.  Overproduction of copper coinage by the Netherlands also led to inflation of copper compared to silver during this era, with the exchange rate drifting from 20:1 stuivers to the silver gulden up to 24:1.

 

 

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Mike Meenderink

Mike Meenderink

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On 10/9/2023 at 6:28 PM, Henri Charriere said:

That's because it is comprised of no part of any coin, as that term is used by hobbyists, presently.  [If I were willing to sacrifice my vaunted "Rising Star" status, so benevolently bestowed upon me by our hosts, I would recklessly suggest they are parts of a clay cuneiform tablet -- or an inscription found on a counterfeit Ming Dynasty vase discovered among the personal effects of that terra cotta contingent discovered in the Forbidden Palace].  🤣

YOU are right its not a coin. But I called it a "coin" in the post. Using the correct term for this item would give it away. You are not correct this is not from a cuneiform tablet or Ming Vase. Great job recognizing the thickness and chunky appearance ..this is a clue to its origin and uses.

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Mike Meenderink

Mike Meenderink

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On 10/9/2023 at 11:13 PM, cobymordet said:

Many ways to skin thy pretty kitty:

What: Netherlands East Indies Java Bonk Emergency Coin 2 Stuiver 1810 (8gr.)

 

Who: Netherlands Colonizers

Where:East Indies / Java Ceylon, etc...

When: 1600-1900 (approx.)

Why:

In the late 1700s and early 1800s, Dutch rule over what is now Indonesia was disrupted by the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars.  The Netherland East Indies were a prosperous colony and with important trade goods, but coinage shipments from the colonizing power were almost completely disrupted due to the wars and occupation.  Emergency coinage was needed to supply the small change to allow commerce to continue.  Large copper bars were imported, typically from Japan, and cut into rough segments which were stamped with the year and denomination. The piece above, for example is a 2 stuiver copper “coin” from 1801, and weighs 17 grams.

According to this source, copper “bonk” money was produced in three distinct intervals.  (“Bonk” is Dutch for a piece or a lump of something.)  The first was during the Batavian Republic, which was installed when the Netherlands was conquered by revolutionary France, and lasted from 1795-1806.  (Bonk coins were made throughout this period starting in 1796.)  Though nominally allied with France, the Netherlands still traded extensively with England, often using then-neutral Germany as a transit point.  Reciprocal economic boycotts between France and England made Dutch maritime trade difficult and disrupted their control of the East Indies.

The second period was the Kingdom of Holland, in which copper bar money was produced dated 1807-1810.  The above bar is from this period.  Emperor Napoleon of France was dissatisfied with the lack of compliance of the Batavian Republic, and re-instituted a monarchy under his brother, Louis Bonaparte.  His brother proved too ambitious, and attempted to establish himself as a popular ruler with his own local base of support, even if it meant resisting Napoleon’s wishes.  For example, he declined to institute the conscription used by the French Republic, as it would have been very unpopular with the Dutch, in spite of Napoleon’s urgent need for more troops to fight against the British.  Dutch control of Java was tenuous during this period, and it lost it entirely after the British invasion of Java in 1811.  The Netherlands only regained their colonial possession after signing a treaty with the UK in 1814, after Napoleon’s first defeat and exile.  Louis Bonaparte had to abdicate and flee the Netherlands in 1810 when his brother occupied the country and annexed it to France proper.  (In spite of the conflict between the two brothers, Louis Bonaparte’s son took advantage of his connection to his famous uncle, later ruling France as Napoleon III.)

The third and last run of copper bar money was produced in 1818-9 under the Kingdom of the Netherlands.  Weights were inconsistent during these various periods, and contemporary lightweight counterfeits existed.  Copper was in high demand during the Napoleonic wars due to its use in copper sheathing for ships, and the price shot up in the early 1800s, making some copper coins suddenly worth more as melt than as money.  Overproduction of copper coinage by the Netherlands also led to inflation of copper compared to silver during this era, with the exchange rate drifting from 20:1 stuivers to the silver gulden up to 24:1.

 

 

Corby if you did not cheat and truly figured this out ... Excellent answer and you have solved the mystery. You are SMART GUY OF THE WEEK! CONGRATULATIONS! Excellent

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cobymordet

cobymordet

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I plead the fifth.  Not a coin app in the world. . . , but google.  I did utilize google pic search and got on to similar fragment pics.  You did not state that we could not use available resources, therefore technically I do not see it as cheating. 

After getting the basic gist of the of the item in question, I got curious and wanted to double-check my work.  I blame Sandon for giving me the queue! (LOL).  My last post with the full-on uber information was a result of "TAINTED EVIDENCE FRUIT OF THE POISONOUS TREE"

So yes, for future search and destroy ops, change the names to protect the innocent pixies, and maybe provide a caveat for utilizing Google pic search, it is surprisingly good if the pic is clear and has enough distinguishing marks. 

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Mike Meenderink

Mike Meenderink

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All research is appropriate EXCEPT Google reverse pic search. No big deal at least you learned something about my home countries history and "coinage". Excellent answer even if you "bent" the research rules. Thanks for playing. Ill make the next one harder and delete the pics info.

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Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

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On 10/10/2023 at 12:23 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Corby if you did not cheat and truly figured this out ... Excellent answer and you have solved the mystery. You are SMART GUY OF THE WEEK! CONGRATULATIONS! Excellent

Maybe so, but no discussion of this fragment is complete without a mention of the precipitating event... the series of volcanic blasts which culminated in the eruption of Krakatau in the Sunda Strait in 1883.  :baiting:

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Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

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Posted (edited)

Blast from the Past!

🐓:  Remember the days when a member boasted there were a total of 150 years of numismatic knowledge and experience amongst the members on the Forum?

Q.A.:  Sure!  How can I forget that?

🐓:  Comes now, a newbie, who toils away quietly at his computer -- dispenses entirely with cuneiform clay tablets, fragments of Ming vases, terra cotta armies and giving Krakatau, which failed to fall within the stated time frame, and thus, was irrelevant to the matter at hand, short shrift, and a member -- not here even a year, exuding calm and confidence, cooly delivers, in substance, his verdict.

Q.A.:  Now tell me this isn't the best forum in the United States. Even the Grand Master and Numismatist of the Year was impressed with what the OP correctly characterized as "research."  Nice going, @cobymordet !

Man, I love this place! 🤣 

 

Edited by Henri Charriere
Die-polishing
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