1815, 1825 E and L counterstamped quarters 1 1

[RWB]

A modest quantity of 1815 and 1825-dated we counterstamped with either an "E" or and "L" sometime before about 1870. Given the higher silver content of pre-1853 quarters, and the subsequent rush to turn "old" silver coin into lighter new pieces, it is probable the pieces were counterstamped between 1825 and 1850. Most examples show limited circulation wear, suggesting that they were acquired from banks or merchants not long after issuance, or came from silver held as bank reserve funds, much like bust-type half dollars.

In any event, there has been much speculation and few facts concerning these coins. Speculation about the Harmony Society (Pennsylvania) founded by George Rapp in 1804 has never led anyplace.

The possibility I happen to feel is most plausible is that these quarters were annual English and Latin examination entrance tokens. In this scenario, a school required passage of an examination in Latin and/or English for admission to the upper school curriculum. Each student who had passed the basic course was given a valuable token (a quarter) for each exam they were to take. The coin became their proof of qualification, and was surrendered when the student showed up for his (rarely her) exam. That the coin was of meaningful value ensured the student would take good care of it, and its admission authority effectively prevented circulation or abuse. The school bore little expense. When the school (likely in New England) closed or changed systems, the coins were banked and forgotten about.

The "school" might easily have been a seminary or college for which proficiency in Latin was a nearly absolute requirement.

Admission token were common in the 19th century as a way to restrict access only to paying customers or authorized persons. Possibly we should look in that path....

Just a speculative thought.

Edited September 13, 2023 by RWB

[zadok]

On 9/13/2023 at 5:44 PM, RWB said:

A modest quantity of 1815 and 1825-dated we counterstamped with either an "E" or and "L" sometime before about 1870. Given the higher silver content of pre-1853 quarters, and the subsequent rush to turn "old" silver coin into lighter new pieces, it is probable the pieces were counterstamped between 1825 and 1850. Most examples show limited circulation wear, suggesting that they were acquired from banks or merchants not long after issuance, or came from silver held as bank reserve funds, much like bust-type half dollars.

In any event, there has been much speculation and few facts concerning these coins. Speculation about the Harmony Society (Pennsylvania) founded by George Rapp in 1804 has never led anyplace.

The possibility I happen to feel is most plausible is that these quarters were annual English and Latin examination entrance tokens. In this scenario, a school required passage of an examination in Latin and/or English for admission to the upper school curriculum. Each student who had passed the basic course was given a valuable token (a quarter) for each exam they were to take. The coin became their proof of qualification, and was surrendered when the student showed up for his (rarely her) exam. That the coin was of meaningful value ensured the student would take good care of it, and its admission authority effectively prevented circulation or abuse. The school bore little expense. When the school (likely in New England) closed or changed systems, the coins were banked and forgotten about.

Admission token were common in the 19th century as a way to restrict access only to paying customers or authorized persons.

Just a speculative thought.

...one never knows, u would think if that were the case or for what ever reason counterstamped there would have been some written family annotation show up...but for coins with PMD they certainly bring a premium when auctioned....

[Henri Charriere]

Easy for both of you to advance these speculative period pipe dreams but in the absence of sources, I reject them with every fiber of my being.

Am I to believe those who likely would know, the TPGS that have evolved since -- the ones through whom such relics would come through far more regularly than an off-the-beaten track coin shop in Dubuque or prominent auction houses, or universities which oddly, felt a report card or transcript was insufficient to demonstrate proficiency, in English about as basic as apple pie) the ANA or the Smithsonian... have all come up blankito?

Sorry, I ain't buying, but will make some inquiries.  (If it it'd've been me, I would have posted the coins under a heading, "Research Inquiry."  Can anyone direct me to a source which offers an explanation as to what these counter stamps mean?")

[RWB]

The places you mention have no data, either. We can eliminate some proposals because nothing fits from extensive records about the supposed sources. Others -- it's a blank sheet - but some of those ideas might just open a door. Thus, it is all speculation, and we have to deal with that for now.

PS: Here's a starting point for one prominent college in New England.

https://guides.library.harvard.edu/c.php?g=1050047&p=7637845

Edited September 14, 2023 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

I do not believe the phone number is in service anymore, what with the advent of the internet, but the New York Public Library's main building, established when the Astor and Lennox Libraries merged with the Tilden Trust, prided itself on answering every question put to it, by phone. It will be a privilege, and honor, to assist you in this regard.  

Edited September 20, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Routine die-polishing.

[Conder101]

A couple more things about these coins.  The letter are punched into the same locations on both the 1815 and the 1825's, the E is always over the peak of the cap, and the L is always close to star 7.  The E and the L punches are the same on both the 1815 and 1825 coins.  There was only one die variety in 1815 so all the punched coins are on the one variety, but in 1825 there were three die varieties but I believe all of the punched coins are all on the same variety.  If they had been punched much later than 1825 there would have been a much greater chance they would have been on more than one variety. 

[RWB]

Good points. Suggests possibly a single source, and all the punching done at the same time.

[zadok]

On 9/13/2023 at 5:44 PM, RWB said:

A modest quantity of 1815 and 1825-dated we counterstamped with either an "E" or and "L" sometime before about 1870. Given the higher silver content of pre-1853 quarters, and the subsequent rush to turn "old" silver coin into lighter new pieces, it is probable the pieces were counterstamped between 1825 and 1850. Most examples show limited circulation wear, suggesting that they were acquired from banks or merchants not long after issuance, or came from silver held as bank reserve funds, much like bust-type half dollars.

In any event, there has been much speculation and few facts concerning these coins. Speculation about the Harmony Society (Pennsylvania) founded by George Rapp in 1804 has never led anyplace.

The possibility I happen to feel is most plausible is that these quarters were annual English and Latin examination entrance tokens. In this scenario, a school required passage of an examination in Latin and/or English for admission to the upper school curriculum. Each student who had passed the basic course was given a valuable token (a quarter) for each exam they were to take. The coin became their proof of qualification, and was surrendered when the student showed up for his (rarely her) exam. That the coin was of meaningful value ensured the student would take good care of it, and its admission authority effectively prevented circulation or abuse. The school bore little expense. When the school (likely in New England) closed or changed systems, the coins were banked and forgotten about.

The "school" might easily have been a seminary or college for which proficiency in Latin was a nearly absolute requirement.

Admission token were common in the 19th century as a way to restrict access only to paying customers or authorized persons. Possibly we should look in that path....

Just a speculative thought.

...just a speculative inquiry ...for such n avowed stickler for source documentation i'm curious as to why u failed to annotate the source of ur "most plausible" possibility for these counterstamps e.g. English/Latin school entrance tokens ?..in case u lost ur notes it was Walter Breen in his Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins....

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/14/2023 at 1:02 PM, zadok said:

..in case u lost ur notes it was Walter Breen in his Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins....

Now THIS is outright, blatant (not latent) in-your-face provocation far worse than all the feral cats and Red China's rolled into one!  

[RWB]

On 9/14/2023 at 1:02 PM, zadok said:

...just a speculative inquiry ...for such n avowed stickler for source documentation i'm curious as to why u failed to annotate the source of ur "most plausible" possibility for these counterstamps e.g. English/Latin school entrance tokens ?..in case u lost ur notes it was Walter Breen in his Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins....

A. It was neither original nor important. Similar speculations go back 100+ years.

B. Your posts are on "Ignore" and have been for a long time. Much like "Slick" and a few others, they convey nothing positive, helpful, or useful.

[zadok]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:20 AM, RWB said:

A. It was neither original nor important. Similar speculations go back 100+ years.

B. Your posts are on "Ignore" and have been for a long time. Much like "Slick" and a few others, they convey nothing positive, helpful, or useful.

...much like urs....

[ldhair]

I don't get it. Someone takes the time to create an interesting thread and others have to trash it. Why?

[zadok]

On 9/16/2023 at 9:37 PM, ldhair said:

I don't get it. Someone takes the time to create an interesting thread and others have to trash it. Why?

...my apologies for deviating from the topic, there r just certain things that require comment but its best to restrain cause nothing is gained, i totally agree this is one of the better threads subject wise, i have long read everything published on the subject n had access to what was available at the national collection in this area...its very intriguing n mite one day be solved...i was enamored by the reports of similar coins counter stamped with an R n pursued that tangent for several years consulting with many of the leading dealers of the '70s-80s to no avail...but one of these days.... 

[numisport]

Would be interesting to know if the counterstamp has reverse damage like Trade Dollars have. Some Trade Dollars exhibit heavy damage on the opposite side of the counterstamp some so severe that eye appeal is negative to me.

[Conder101]

On 9/19/2023 at 1:11 PM, numisport said:

Would be interesting to know if the counterstamp has reverse damage like Trade Dollars have.

They do, but it is VERY slight, not like what you would normally expect.  Many early description of these coins say there is no damage to the reverse but the ones I have examined do have very slight deformation on the reverse.  Early writers speculated that tey were done at the mint and done while the coins were still in the die.  That would support the entire surface of the reverse and prevent the rev damage.  I don't believe they were done at the mint, but placing them in a discarded rev die could be a possibility.  But if you didn't have the die they came from I would expect damage ofa different type.  Unfortunately i had not considered that when I had the chance to examine them so I didn't look for other damage.

[zadok]

On 9/19/2023 at 9:45 PM, Conder101 said:

They do, but it is VERY slight, not like what you would normally expect.  Many early description of these coins say there is no damage to the reverse but the ones I have examined do have very slight deformation on the reverse.  Early writers speculated that tey were done at the mint and done while the coins were still in the die.  That would support the entire surface of the reverse and prevent the rev damage.  I don't believe they were done at the mint, but placing them in a discarded rev die could be a possibility.  But if you didn't have the die they came from I would expect damage ofa different type.  Unfortunately i had not considered that when I had the chance to examine them so I didn't look for other damage.

...it is possible that these coins were not "stamped" nor "struck" but were simply "impressed" , the letters being slowly impressed into the surface with significant pressure but not enuf to alter the reverse side of the coin???....

[RWB]

Backing the coin with a leather pad helped reduce damage/flattening opposite the punch. Further, these were small, thin punches - much less likely to create obvious damage.

[Henri Charriere]

The bigger mystery goes beyond the counterpunched letters to the ten-year drought between the onset and conclusion of this activity.  I am inclined to cite Locard's Principle of exchange, but there is no evidence of criminal intent here.  In the end, we will find something comparable to Ted Kaczynski's "FC" which purportedly stood for Freedom Club or George Metesky's "FP" which stood for Fair Play.  Requesting a matriculated student to produce a specific letter punched into a specific location on a certain date of a series of coin to prove proficiency in a particular language is a bit much and something I would expect from a son of the great-great grandparents of a Quintus Arrius.  🤣

[RWB]

Well, we can't really assume the dates meant anything except random availability of a couple of bags in a local bank... But that's just as much a guess as anything else. 

They might be an elaborate prank.