PCGS Doily info . 1 1

[Ohnoimbroke]

I just purchased this nice mercury dime in a "Doily" holder . I've been trying to find more info on it . Is it a reprint or remake ? Retro doily keeps coming up . Was heritage auctions the only one to get these ? I'm trying to find a year they were made . Any help will be appreciated . Have all these coins vanished ? They are hard to find . On eBay sold there's just not Alot of them . Is there a premium on these ? Thanks in advance 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Ohnoimbroke

[powermad5000]

Nice Mercury dime!!!!!  I have many across the series in 66 FB. To me they are beautiful coins. 

If I am not mistaken, these are referred to as OGH (Old Green Holders). These are an early PCGS holder. I could not tell you the age of these holders, and I know there is someone on here who does know that particular. If I had to take a guess at it I would say these go back to the late 80's or early 90's but I am not 100% sure of that.

They are not a reprint or remake. These were the holders they used at the time.

[Coinbuf]

On 9/8/2023 at 11:40 AM, powermad5000 said:

 If I am not mistaken, these are referred to as OGH (Old Green Holders). These are an early PCGS holder. I could not tell you the age of these holders, and I know there is someone on here who does know that particular. If I had to take a guess at it I would say these go back to the late 80's or early 90's but I am not 100% sure of that.

They are not a reprint or remake. These were the holders they used at the time.

Sorry to say but you are mistaken, this is indeed a retro doily holder, not an OGH and is a quite recent holder style.

@Ohnoimbroke you are correct in calling this a retro doily, these were introduced in 2017 and could be requested by the submitter.   While I do not know if there is any estimate of how many coins were submitted and this label requested, they are nothing special from a collectability of the holder standpoint, at least not at this time.   Here is a true doily holder, this original label was used for a brief time in 1989, true doily holders are not impossible to find but are getting scarce.

Edited to add, your Merc looks to be a very nice coin.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Coinbuf

[Sandon]

   This is not the original "doily" holder used for a brief period in 1989. See PCGS Museum of Coin Holders: Generation 2.0, 1989. This is a "retro doily" label offered by PCGS a few years ago--2017, I've read--to commemorate the original "doily" label. The holder housing your 1937 dime is except for the label the "Generation 6.0" holder used from 2015 to 2020. See PCGS Museum of Coin Holders: Generation 6.0, 2015-2020.  The differences are particularly apparent when you "flip" the images to view the backs of the labels, which are completely different. 

[powermad5000]

Well, I stand corrected. As I am not a fan of PCGS to begin with, that is to be expected.

[EagleRJO]

On 9/8/2023 at 2:40 PM, powermad5000 said:

If I am not mistaken, these are referred to as OGH (Old Green Holders).

That's not a PCG$ OGH (Original Green Holder).  There are a few generations of the green holders, but attached are the original PCG$ Gen 1 (Not an OGH), OGH-Gen1 (PCG$ Gen-2 holder) and OGH-Gen2 (PCG$ Gen-3) are attached.

When I see these at auction I immediately close out the window (or don't even open it if I see OGH) as there is a common (mis)conception that ALL the older OGH holders have undegraded coins, so people go ga-ga over them without even looking at the coin.  In reality it's only some, like with an exceptional appearance.

Edited September 9, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Ohnoimbroke]

Where are all the holders ? Why can't I find them for sale in any quantity over 1 or 2 . Is there a premium on these ? 

[Coinbuf]

On 9/8/2023 at 1:06 PM, EagleRJO said:

That's not a PCG$ OGH (Original Green Holder).  There are a few generations of the OGH, but Gen 1 and Gen 2 are attached.

When I see these at auction I immediately close out the window (or don't even open it if I see OGH) as there is a common (mis)conception that ALL the older OGH holders have undegraded coins, so people go ga-ga over them without even looking at the coin.  In reality it's only some, like with an exceptional appearance.

Just to clarify and get this right, the first photo in your post is not an OGH, that is a gen 1.2 "rattler".   OGH stands for old green holder and is used to describe the PCGS holder generations that cover gen 2.1 to 3.1.   Yes the rattler does in this second version have a green label (the first version was white) but rattler holders are considered different than OGH holders.

I guess I should do a class on holders.  

Edited September 8, 2023 by Coinbuf

[Coinbuf]

On 9/8/2023 at 1:20 PM, Ohnoimbroke said:

Where are all the holders ? Why can't I find them for sale in any quantity over 1 or 2 . Is there a premium on these ? 

Yes there often is a premium associated with many of the PCGS holder generation from 3.1 (the end of the OGH) and earlier, even the solid blue label holders are beginning to see some premiums as those are now getting more difficult to locate.   The same is true for the Gen 1 thru Gen 5 NGC holders, often lumped together as "Fatties" because those early NGC generations were thicker than the Gen 6 to current holders.   The very first PCGS rattler holder with the white label is extremely difficult to locate just as the very first NGC "black label" holder, both of these holders will sell for many thousands of dollars regardless of the coin in the holder.

As to where they all are, well slab collecting is a real thing, I am myself a slab collector, if you click on the "old Holder collection" link in my sig line it will take you to my collection of old holders which currently has 99 old holders.   However due to how the NGC system works visitors to my old holder collection can only see the NGC and PCGS holders, I have tons of old ANACS, PCI ACG and many other old and defunct grading services holders in that set.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Coinbuf

[Sandon]

   I'm under the impression that the term "OGH" means "old grading [service] holder" not "old green holder".  I'm sure I've seen Stacks Bowers, at least, use "OGH" for lots housed in older ANACS and NGC, as well as PCGS, holders. The confusion likely stems from the PCGS holders with green labels, last used in 1998 except for "retro" versions, qualifying as "OGH" under either definition. 

On 9/8/2023 at 4:20 PM, Ohnoimbroke said:

Where are all the holders ? Why can't I find them for sale in any quantity over 1 or 2 . Is there a premium on these ? 

   I strongly recommend that you collect coins, not grading service holders, and learn to evaluate the coins in the holders without undue reliance on the grade stated on the holder and without regard to the age of the holder. If you insist on collecting coins in "old holders", Stacks Bowers (stacksbowers.com) and possibly other auction houses hold "Old Holders" auctions from time to time. Coins in these holders are mostly widely dispersed and often held in collections (like mine) for decades. Others have been "cracked" out" of the holders and resubmitted in the hope of the coins receiving higher grades. Most new dealer inventory consists of coins that have been recently submitted, often by the dealers offering the coins.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Sandon
deleted erroneous word

[Coinbuf]

On 9/8/2023 at 1:35 PM, Sandon said:

   I'm under the impression that the term "OGH" means "old grading [service] holder" not "old green holder".  I'm sure I've seen Stacks Bowers, at least, use "OGH" for lots housed in older ANACS and NGC, as well as PCGS, holders. The confusion likely stems from the PCGS holders with green labels, last used in 1998 except for "retro" versions, qualifying as "OGH" under either definition. 

   I strongly recommend that you collect coins, not grading service holders, and learn to evaluate the coins in the holders without undue reliance on the grade stated on the holder and without regard to the age of the holder. If you insist on collecting coins in "old holders", Stacks Bowers (stacksbowers.com) and possibly other auction houses hold "Old Holders" auctions from time to time. Coins in these holders and are mostly widely dispersed and often held in collections (like mine) for decades. Others have been "cracked" out" of the holders and resubmitted in the hope of the coins receiving higher grades. Most new dealer inventory consists of coins that have been recently submitted, often by the dealers offering the coins.

OGH has always been used by slab collectors and researchers to refer to the PCGS generation 2.1 to 3.1 holders with the green labels.   However, as we recently saw in another thread terms often get applied outside of their intended use, like the use of "SMS" to the mid 2000 satin finish coins.

Rattler = PCGS gen 1.1 & 1.2 holders

OGH = PCGS gen 2.1 to 3.1 holders

OBH = PCGS gen 4 holders with the solid blue label

OWH = ANACS old small white holder, also referred to as the "soapbox" holder

Fattie = NGC gen 1 to gen 5 holders which had the solid core without the keyed line under the label.   Gen 1 had the black core 2 thru 5 had the white core

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Coinbuf

[EagleRJO]

On 9/8/2023 at 4:21 PM, Coinbuf said:

the first photo in your post is not an OGH, that is a gen 1.2 "rattler".   OGH ... is used to describe the PCGS holder generations that cover gen 2.1 to 3.1. 

Your right, I just posted the first green holder, which is a "rattler", with a PCG$ second genetation green holder.  Fixed to what is referred to as a (Green) "Rattler", an OGH Gen-1 (PCG$ Generation-2 holder) and OGH Gen-2 (PCG$ Generation-3 holder), or at least that is how the are referred to on Great Collections, with "Gen" being the generation of the original green holder and not the overall generation for PCG$.

Also, it would probably be helpful to add a pic to each holder type, with the first 3 posted by me above.

Edited September 9, 2023 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 9/8/2023 at 4:35 PM, Sandon said:

I strongly recommend that you collect coins, not grading service holders, and learn to evaluate the coins in the holders without undue reliance on the grade stated on the holder and without regard to the age of the holder.

Agreed, but even though I look at the coin I still identify the holder to see if it's one people might submit unreasonable bids on just because of the holder.

[RWB]

These holders were made in Nashville, TN by a company owned by country music star Dolly Parton. A corruption of her name led to them being called "Doily Holders." A similar name was applied to women's foundation garments of above average dimensions.

(Now -- about that large white mansion I have for sale in Washington DC....)

[Newenglandrarities]

On 9/8/2023 at 1:20 PM, Ohnoimbroke said:

Where are all the holders ? Why can't I find them for sale in any quantity over 1 or 2 . Is there a premium on these ? 

As said above, yes there is a premium depending on the coin in the holder.  The original holders can have a significant premium, especially for a “fresh” coin to the market.  For example, on the NGC side of things, the “fatty” holders of the past command a premium, and the NGC black holders used for a very short period of time can command upwards of $5000 just for the holder, coin doesn’t matter!  There is a big collectable market there as these holders were not purposely made for collectability but just because changes were made fast, they became rare in themselves.  

[powermad5000]

On 9/8/2023 at 3:06 PM, EagleRJO said:

That's not a PCG$ OGH (Original Green Holder).

Yes. I have already been schooled on this.

 

On 9/8/2023 at 3:35 PM, Sandon said:

 I'm under the impression that the term "OGH" means "old grading [service] holder" not "old green holder".

Again, I am now schooled on this.

For all, I am actually happy my ignorance on this subject opened up a good wide discussion. I will say though, there is no way I am ever going to pay a premium for the plastic that houses a coin inside of it. I will let others pay premiums on that. I collect coins. Not plastic holders.

[Ohnoimbroke]

Everyone says collect the coin . Not the holder . Than why is CAC not only stickering coins but now encapsulates coins . What about the regency holders 

 The plus + * star PL . Would have no meaning . But each command a higher price . And are few & far in-between . I'm lost . To much info I guess . Thank each of you for helping 

[EagleRJO]

On 9/8/2023 at 5:58 PM, powermad5000 said:

On 9/8/2023 at 4:06 PM, EagleRJO said:

That's not a PCG$ OGH (Original Green Holder).

Yes. I have already been schooled on this.

Wasn't trying to do that, just use the comment to post some examples and Coinbuf schooled me as I inadvertently posted a PCG$ Generation-1 green holder ("rattler") and not an OGH Gen-1 label from my examples folder.  I know, it can get confusing.  I wouldn't expect anything less as members like @Coinbuf and @Sandon really keep you on your toes.  

Edited September 9, 2023 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 9/8/2023 at 6:06 PM, Ohnoimbroke said:

Everyone says collect the coin . Not the holder . Than why is CAC not only stickering coins but now encapsulates coins.

I agree with the mantra of collecting the coin not the label, as do some others on the board such as @Sandon and a few others. I don't care what a label says, I am going to look at the coin in the holder and make my decisions based on that.

There have been a few cases where if I just bought a coin based on the label I would have ended up with an under-graded coin.  And sometimes there are substantial premiums just based on a label, where the coin is nothing special, which to me is a waste of money.

However, some collectors like coins associated with a certain person who collected the coin or where the coin came from (e.g. the "Great Southern Hoard").  It"s not for me, but I understand that.

On 9/8/2023 at 6:06 PM, Ohnoimbroke said:

What about the regency holders ... The plus + * star PL . Would have no meaning

The PL (prooflike) designation has been around for quite some time, but the "+" and "*" grade modifiers are relatively newer.  See the following link to the current NGC grading scale and grade modifiers which includes "+", "*" and "PL" grade modifiers.

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/grading-scale/

The current "+" designation is essentially meat to convey that a coin is exceptional within a given grade, approaching the next higher grade per the link above.  The "+" designation is essentially what a coin with a CAC sticker used to mean.  I'm not aware of any coins with a "+" designation that also have a CAC sticker, but if so imo that would be redundant.  It would be a no-brainer for CAC to slap a sticker on a coin with a "+" modifier.

More recently CAC has entered the TPG arena and is grading coins, which is different than the CAC stickers.  I'm curious to know if they also use a "+" designation for exceptional coins like the other TPGs, or if they add a CAC sticker to exception coins they have straight graded.  🤔 

Edited September 9, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Coinbuf]

On 9/8/2023 at 5:43 PM, EagleRJO said:

I'm curious to know if they also use a "+" designation for exceptional coins like the other TPGs, or if they add a CAC sticker to exception coins they have straight graded.  🤔 

A bit off the topic, but yes CACG will be using plus grades in their grading scale.   There is a green bean on the label of every CACG slab, it is not a separate sticker bean like what CAC affixes when it approves a coin, rather it is part of the design of the label, a brand symbol if you like.   Early on JA was going to use the same stickers in the slabs, however, there was concern over the glue on the sticker outgassing and causing some toning issues.   Thus, it was decided that the label would be printed with a CAC style green bean as part of the label.   I only have my sample slab and no photos of it yet, but here is a photo of one of the new CACG slabs that has been posted on another forum, as you can see the "bean" printed on the label is on the right side of the label.  This also shows the photography service that CACG is offering, similar to the NGC Photovision or PCGS TV.

[Coinbuf]

On 9/8/2023 at 3:06 PM, Ohnoimbroke said:

Everyone says collect the coin . Not the holder . Than why is CAC not only stickering coins but now encapsulates coins . What about the regency holders 

 The plus + * star PL . Would have no meaning . But each command a higher price . And are few & far in-between . I'm lost . To much info I guess . Thank each of you for helping 

Collect the coin not the holder, that is a phrase which just means you should be assessing the quality and grade of the coin in any TPG holder, not just blindly paying extra because the holder is an older style of holder.   It is a great saying and is true to a point, however, today's world is not the same one that many older collectors grew up in.   Many collectors enjoy collecting the old style of holders just as much for the holder as the coin, I am one of those collectors.   I enjoy the history behind the holder as much as I enjoy the coin in the holder.

CAC has made the decision to start a TPG company to compete with NGC, PCGS, ANACS, and the other current TPG companies.    This is not a new phenomenon as many grading companies have been started and closed down since the early 1980's.   We do not know if the new grading arm of CAC (often referred to as CACG) will be successful and be a long term TPG or not, that will be decided in the future.   CAC is still offering the stickering service, there has been much speculation about how long that service will continue, this too will be decided in the future.

The Regency holder was another short-lived holder style offered by PCGS from 1992 to 1994, the bulk of these holders were used to house the Danny Kaye collection of Israeli coins, while there are some, very few US coinage was ever placed into Regency holders.   These are also highly sought after holders for those who like to collect holders.

The use of the + and * are just ways that the TPG's came up with to highlight those coins which they feel are special in some way or another or are so very close to the next grade up on the Sheldon scale.  These are subjective identifiers, and some collectors will agree while others will not, when considering a purchase of a + or * graded coin it is up to the buyer to decide if he agrees with the TPG's assessment of superior quality or eye appeal before spending extra monies for a coin with one of those identifiers on the label.   This brings up back to the first part of your inquiry, buy the coin not the holder. 

On 9/8/2023 at 1:20 PM, Ohnoimbroke said:

Where are all the holders ? Why can't I find them for sale in any quantity over 1 or 2 . Is there a premium on these ? 

When I replied to this above I may have misunderstood your question the first time, if you are asking about the retro doily style of holder/label, there is no magic stockpile of this holder/label.   As I said it is impossible to know how many submitters requested this label when they submitted coins, as such these simply pop up for sale when they do, there is no source or motherload where you would be able to find a large quantity for sale in one place.

[EagleRJO]

On 9/8/2023 at 10:06 PM, Coinbuf said:

A bit off the topic, but yes CACG will be using plus grades in their grading scale.

 

There is a green bean on the label of every CACG slab, it is not a separate sticker bean like what CAC affixes when it approves a coin, rather it is part of the design of the label, a brand symbol if you like.

Not really that much off topic as @Ohnoimbroke was asking about the grade designations and the CAC stickers.  I think your right that every CACG slab will have a CAC like sticker on the label as their signature logo, even if it straight grades.

Attached is an example from the CACG website showing a straight graded coin (i.e. no plus or "+" designation) that has the CAC sticker like logo.  I bet that will confuse some collectors who might think it's a "green beaned" MS65.

[powermad5000]

On 9/8/2023 at 6:47 PM, EagleRJO said:

Wasn't trying to do that, just use the comment to post some examples and Coinbuf schooled me as I inadvertently posted a Gen 1 green holder ("rattler") and not a Gen 1 OGH from my examples folder.  I wouldn't expect anything less as members like @Coinbuf and @Sandon really keep you on your toes.  

It's ok @EagleRJO. I have thick skin and also will never admit that I know everything. This type of schooling is good to me. I am learning a lot of new things in this thread. Members like @Coinbuf and @Sandon I have very high respect for as both are highly knowledgeable and make my knowledge base seem small, but I enjoy learning from them.

I would like it better if CACG put their name on the label in -script as CACG, but only printed the green bean on the label for exceptional coins instead of using the green bean on every coin and using the + or *. I get that it is six of one and half a dozen of the other, but when going to a show nowadays and passing by cases FULL of slabs, that green bean sticks out in the plethora of slabs, and if I were walking past case after case just looking for slabs with the bean, it is easier to find them if every slab doesn't have it on there. If there is a flood of green beans because they put one on every slab they grade, it will take more time to find what would be considered the new bean trying to see if any of their slabs have either a + or a * on them.

[Coinbuf]

On 9/8/2023 at 9:35 PM, powermad5000 said:

It's ok @EagleRJO. I have thick skin and also will never admit that I know everything. This type of schooling is good to me. I am learning a lot of new things in this thread. Members like @Coinbuf and @Sandon I have very high respect for as both are highly knowledgeable and make my knowledge base seem small, but I enjoy learning from them.

I would like it better if CACG put their name on the label in --script as CACG, but only printed the green bean on the label for exceptional coins instead of using the green bean on every coin and using the + or *. I get that it is six of one and half a dozen of the other, but when going to a show nowadays and passing by cases FULL of slabs, that green bean sticks out in the plethora of slabs, and if I were walking past case after case just looking for slabs with the bean, it is easier to find them if every slab doesn't have it on there. If there is a flood of green beans because they put one on every slab they grade, it will take more time to find what would be considered the new bean trying to see if any of their slabs have either a + or a * on them.

I never assume that I know everything, we each have areas that we know well and areas that we can improve our knowledge of.    I learn something new almost every day either here or another forum from members including yourself.   That is what makes this community valuable.    

[EagleRJO]

On 9/9/2023 at 12:35 AM, powermad5000 said:

I have very high respect for as both [Coinbuf & Sandon] are highly knowledgeable and make my knowledge base seem small

Agreed about them, which is also beyond my knowledge too.  But don't sell yourself short as I have seen many posts by you accurately accessing coins, providing useful information I wasn't aware of, and being very helpful to newer ppl on the board.

On 9/9/2023 at 12:35 AM, powermad5000 said:

I would like it better if CACG put their name on the label in --------script as CACG, but only printed the green bean on the label for exceptional coins instead of using the green bean on every coin

Looks like the "green bean" is now part of the CACG logo to go on every slab, both with and without the "+" designation, which less savy collectors may mistake for the old bean.  That may be intentional.

On 9/8/2023 at 5:08 PM, RWB said:

These holders were made in Nashville, TN by a company owned by country music star Dolly Parton. A corruption of her name led to them being called "Doily Holders."

Hmmm, are these "Dolly" holders only for large coins?  

Or maybe for any flashy coins like the attached "Dolly Holder" 

Edited September 15, 2023 by EagleRJO