Another confirmation of 1894-S dimes 1 1

[RWB]

All the off-metal cents, etc. were found in circulation. 1913 Liberty nickels were not, and have never been formally adjudicated,

 

[zadok]

On 9/14/2023 at 9:07 AM, RWB said:

All the off-metal cents, etc. were found in circulation. 1913 Liberty nickels were not, and have never been formally adjudicated,

 

...everyone who is anyone has looked at them, im sure well over adjudicated....

[RWB]

Note that when mint directors Kimball and Andrew each tried to confiscate off-metal patterns and related trial and experimental pieces, their efforts were promptly rejected by the Attorney General of U.S.

Edited September 14, 2023 by RWB

[Conder101]

On 9/14/2023 at 9:07 AM, RWB said:

All the off-metal cents, etc. were found in circulation.

Most of the 1943 coppers were found in circulation, the two most recent were from the estates of mint workers that worked at the mint in 1943.  MAYBE they found them in circulation, but it seems an unlikely coincidence.  As for the 1974 aluminum cents, one was supposedly dropped by a Congressman and picked up by a Capitlal worker who was told to keep it (Toven specimen) and the Smithsonian specimen was found by a congressional aide in the drawer of an outgoing Congressman's desk.  I wouldn't call either of theose "in circulation".  The 1974 D aluminum cent came from the estate of the Denver mint superintendent.  Again not from circulation.

The court ruled that I think one or two of the Sac mules were circulation finds, but that the rest were smuggled out of the mint and are government property.  I don't believe they have tried to recover them though, even though they know where they are.

[zadok]

On 9/15/2023 at 12:34 AM, Conder101 said:

Most of the 1943 coppers were found in circulation, the two most recent were from the estates of mint workers that worked at the mint in 1943.  MAYBE they found them in circulation, but it seems an unlikely coincidence.  As for the 1974 aluminum cents, one was supposedly dropped by a Congressman and picked up by a Capitlal worker who was told to keep it (Toven specimen) and the Smithsonian specimen was found by a congressional aide in the drawer of an outgoing Congressman's desk.  I wouldn't call either of theose "in circulation".  The 1974 D aluminum cent came from the estate of the Denver mint superintendent.  Again not from circulation.

The court ruled that I think one or two of the Sac mules were circulation finds, but that the rest were smuggled out of the mint and are government property.  I don't believe they have tried to recover them though, even though they know where they are.

...well im going spend my '13 nickels soon as i find a 5cent coke machine that still works...the Biedenharn museum just too far away....

Edited September 15, 2023 by zadok

[J P M]

On 9/15/2023 at 11:26 AM, zadok said:

...well im going spend my '13 nickels soon as i find a 5cent coke machine that still works...the Biedenharn museum just too far away....

When I was a kid the 5 cent coke machines were everywhere. But then again almost everything was 5 cents  

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/4/2023 at 7:02 AM, Conder101 said:

....  The same was true with the 1913 V Nickels. They all used to be considered business strike quality as well, though sometimes called proof like.

Respectfully, the term "business strike" did not exist and was unheard of until recent times.  They were all collectively referred to as "circulation strikes." [Check any vintage Red Book for confirmation. This obtains until such time as RWB's digs indicate otherwise.]  

[RWB]

On 9/15/2023 at 7:47 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Respectfully, the term "business strike" did not exist and was unheard of until recent times. 

"Business strike" was another Breenism that merely confused. Maybe he liked it because it had two fewer syllables than "circulation," or possibly it was simple ignorance.

For those just arriving, the business of a mint is to manufacture coins, Thus everything a mint produces is part of its normal business. The phrase "business strike" tells us nothing about the coin under discussion.

As Henri-Quintus and others have mentioned, the phrase "circulation strike" is not only older, but it tells us something specific about the coin: that it was made for circulation purposes. Likewise, "proof strike" contains useful information that distinguishes it from "circulation strike." The same applies to "trial strike," "experimental strike," "pattern piece," and so forth.

(This is part of a larger attempt to return American numismatics to clearer, specific terminology in which the names of things convey concise meaning about how or why something was made or identified. It is also intended to restrict terminology to a single meaning for a word, rather than merely tossing about words like a dog kicking sand.)

[RWB]

Consider the following in relation to all the stories and fabrications published about "why" the dimes were made:

The real problem of the SF Mint was that the Coiner officially delivered these 24 dimes to the Superintendent. Before delivery, the Coiner has complete control of bullion and any pieces struck from it. He could make these or any other stray or test pieces go away, and they would never show up except a a bit of bullion. Foolishly, he delivered the 24 pieces of struck bullion, which instantly made them legal tender coins, that HAD to be recorded, tracked, tested, etc. Hence the 1894-S dimes now existed.

Making real coins "vanish" from the SF Mint books was almost impossible. So, stories were invented to justify the coins and to offer hollow explanations covering the mistake. (If you read my articles about the 1933 DE, you'll see that the Coiner evidently pulled some 1932 DE before they were delivered, then melted them at the end of the year; and finally replaced the "missing" coins with 1933-date DE in March 1933. Something similar likely occurred on other occasions...but we'll never know because the pieces were never delivered, and simply remained bullion.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/13/2023 at 12:23 AM, VKurtB said:

Not “crimes”? Huh. Striking 5 utterly unauthorized coins for surreptitious purposes. Sounds like crimes to me. 

Interesting that possessing unauthorized strikings is not a crime....but possessing an exchanged 1933 DE is. 

As I have noted before, a Treasury official (and maybe Mint officials over the decades, too) has said that despite multiple sales of the 1913 Liberty Nickels, they could/should be CONFISCATED which to me is a brazen evisceration of private proprty rights and the rule of law. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:01 PM, Hoghead515 said:

This may be a dumb question but would it be possible for them to accidently put in dies made for 1894 S dimes while they were close to the end of the 1893 S run? Then realize what they done after a few strikes and instead of destroying them went ahead and put them in the bag of  1893 S dimes? Ive not heard much about these but it sure is interesting why so very few were struck. And it interests me why 2 of them have been found in circulated condition. 

You would think that a previous year's dies -- all of 'em -- would be rounded up and DESTROYED at the same time as the new current year dies are unpacked.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/13/2023 at 9:53 AM, RWB said:

I also agree with Kurt that these five are likely the result of criminal activity

Do we know what the market value of these Liberty Nickels was in 1913 ?  Was it a huge amount or just a few bucks ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/13/2023 at 10:14 AM, zadok said:

...here is a hypothetical scenario for u to chew on...lets say i have in my possession 5 liberty head nickels dated 1913 that my grandfather kept in a safety security box n that he worked at a certain branch of the federal gov't in philadelphia in the first quarter of the 20th century...they have remained undisclosed this past 113 years n i want to have them certified n graded, sound familiar?...remember there r already 5 such nickels in acknowledged existence, what would the feds do bout this turn of events?...just curious bout forums best guess opinions?....

As I stated, some government officials believed even with multiple, out-in-the-open transactions that the Liberty Head 1913 Nickels should be seized.  Thankfully, that is a sentiment from decades ago.

The 1933 Indian Head Eagles are also not all properly accounted for, but since we know SOME of them are legit, it is "unfair" as well as impossible to trace which ones are legit/legal and which ones are not.  Hence, all 35-40 1933 Indian Head Eagles are OK to own/possess.

Edited September 18, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/14/2023 at 11:57 AM, RWB said:

Note that when mint directors Kimball and Andrew each tried to confiscate off-metal patterns and related trial and experimental pieces, their efforts were promptly rejected by the Attorney General of U.S.

Years ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/15/2023 at 12:34 AM, Conder101 said:

The court ruled that I think one or two of the Sac mules were circulation finds, but that the rest were smuggled out of the mint and are government property.  I don't believe they have tried to recover them though, even though they know where they are.

Where are they ?  And why called "mules" ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/15/2023 at 7:11 PM, J P M said:

When I was a kid the 5 cent coke machines were everywhere. But then again almost everything was 5 cents  

I never tried to buy a $100,000 bar because I thought it literally cost $100,000 to buy. 

Then I wised up and realized the machine couldn't handle that much in change, so it HAD to sell for less ! 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/18/2023 at 12:32 PM, RWB said:

He could make these or any other stray or test pieces go away, and they would never show up except a a bit of bullion. Foolishly, he delivered the 24 pieces of struck bullion, which instantly made them legal tender coins, that HAD to be recorded, tracked, tested, etc. Hence the 1894-S dimes now existed.

I think in all the details, I got lost.....again WHY were the 1894-S's not supposed to have been created....why should the Coiner have yanked them ?  Was it the low volume of coins (24) struck ? 

[zadok]

On 9/18/2023 at 5:25 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think in all the details, I got lost.....again WHY were the 1894-S's not supposed to have been created....why should the Coiner have yanked them ?  Was it the low volume of coins (24) struck ? 

...they never got an order to produce dimes that year....

[zadok]

On 9/18/2023 at 5:09 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

As I stated, some government officials believed even with multiple, out-in-the-open transactions that the Liberty Head 1913 Nickels should be seized.  Thankfully, that is a sentiment from decades ago.

The 1933 Indian Head Eagles are also not all properly accounted for, but since we know SOME of them are legit, it is "unfair" as well as impossible to trace which ones are legit/legal and which ones are not.  Hence, all 35-40 1933 Indian Head Eagles are OK to own/possess.

...ive seen a few....

[zadok]

On 9/18/2023 at 5:21 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Where are they ?  And why called "mules" ?

...sacagawea reverse dollar die n washington quarter obverse die, hence "mule" pairing of dies...

[zadok]

On 9/18/2023 at 5:21 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Where are they ?  And why called "mules" ?

...also i believe HA sold a "muled" sacagawea dollar obverse paired with a presidential dollar reverse for $70K few years back....

[RWB]

On 9/18/2023 at 5:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Years ?

1887, 1910

Kimball tried to confiscate part of the Linderman Estate auction. Andrew set up a "sting" in an attempt to confiscate off-metal pattern pieces. (This is in my 1909-1915 RAC book).

[Henri Charriere]

VIEWER DISCRETION!

THE SACAJAWEAS ARE CALLED MULES BECAUSE THEY WERE THE ONES THAT WERE USED AS PACK MULES  TO CARRY OUT THE CANVAS BAGS WITHIN ONE OF WHICH WERE SURREPTITIOUSLY SECRETED THE 1913 LIBERTY NICKELS YOU, AND NOBODY ELSE EVER GOT TO SEE.  FROM THE THIEF'S MEMOIRS, PUBLISHED UNDER A PSEUDONYM:

"I AM UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO EXPLAIN TO ANYONE -- CERTIFIED NUMISMATIST OR CHARMING INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER -- WHY I ACQUIRED THEM, WHERE THEIR PRESENT WHEREABOUTS ARE, OR WHY I INSTRUCTED MY HEIRS TO RESIST THE URGE TO POST THEM PUBLICALLY AT ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE WHETHER COIN ALBUMS (OR SET REGISTRIES) ARE INVENTED, OR NOT."  🤣

Edited September 19, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Closing quotation mark.

[Conder101]

On 9/18/2023 at 4:59 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Do we know what the market value of these Liberty Nickels was in 1913 ? 

They had no value in 1913 because they weren't known to exist.  In 1919 Samuel Brown posted advertisements in The Numismatist offering to buy  1913 V nickels for $500 each, later raised to $600.  In 1920 he displayed the five coins implying that he had managed to purchase them through his ads.  Later he offered them for sale  but eventually ending up selling all five coins for $600..

On 9/18/2023 at 5:21 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Where are they ?

Of the 11 specimens listed by PCGS I believe two are in government hands and 8 of them are owned by Tommy Bolack.  Tommy buys every one that comes on the market.

[zadok]

...just to clarify before n inundation of "there r 11 of the 1913 nickels?"  inquiries...there r 5 of the 1913 V nickels n 11 known of the sacagawea muled quarters...Conder was answering two of GF's separate questions in one reply...keep up....

[Conder101]

Thanks for clarifying that for me Zadok.

[zadok]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:34 PM, Conder101 said:

Thanks for clarifying that for me Zadok.

...glad to assist...i just knew there would be comments....