French indochina 20 centiemes 1909 1 1

[Traghan]

I’m having difficulty finding information about this coin. Can anyone give me a possible value/grade, is it worth grading? The ones I’ve seen online are expensive but in bad condition. Any help much appreciated. Thank you guys…

[Fenntucky Mike]

I did some quick searching and the obv and rev don't seem to match the parings for the date, the reverse should be #2 below. There is a known mule of this date which paired the obv with rev #1 below but I have not seen a muleing of rev #3 with the common obv and date. At this point I'm skeptical the coin is authentic and assume it is a fake, but if you do some searching and can find if there were in fact mules using this combination of dies you might be in business. Can you post clearer images, particularly of the obv and the edge?

Images from NGC. 

Reverses were changed as silver content was lessened.

1885-97

1898-1919

1921-1937

There is also a different reverse for 1920, "without fineness"

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Clarification

[Sandon]

   I looked 1909 French Indochina 20 centime pieces up on the NGC World Coin Price Guide. World Coin Price Guide and Values | NGC (ngccoin.com).  As noted by @Fenntucky Mike, there are two different types for that date, but neither matches your coin, a major difference being that the two recognized types state the fineness as "0.835 POIDS", while yours states it as "0.635 POIDS". As that weight wasn't established or stated before coins dated 1921, the most likely explanation--usually the correct one--is that the coin is a counterfeit. There is a faint chance that it is an unlisted restrike "mule", but I highly doubt it.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Sandon
corrected "weight" to "fineness"

[Fenntucky Mike]

"TITRE 0,680 . POIDS 5 GR .4" is the fineness (.680) and weight (5.4g) of the coin in grams. Interesting that the weight was displayed to three decimals on the first reverse, I don't know that I've seen that on other coins of the era or maybe I just never noticed.  They must have wanted to fill up that dead space. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Spelling

[Traghan]

Ok, I have two of them. One 1909 & the second 1907. I’ve done the best with my pics I’m getting a new phone soon. They aren’t magnetic & tested as silver so I’m really confused on the reason they faked these, because I honestly think you’re suspicions are right about them being fake. Well, I found on the numismatic site that these were made with many different levels of silver including the amounts mine show, but I don’t understand the reasoning for going through the process to fake this one especially with real metals & you could do so many better coins if you were faking. But, who can explain that because it happens all the time. So do y’all think these are just fakes & not worth grading? Thank y’all for helping me with clarity. 

[Traghan]

I also found this on the numismatic site…

[Traghan]

Thank y’all for y’all’s help!

[Fenntucky Mike]

They seem to be counterfeits based on my observations. Compare yours to other authenticated 1909 coins.

Is the dimple/bump circled raised? What do they weigh?

Here's the image from numista.

Another from Stack's Bowers, this is the 1909, .900 mule.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Clarification

[Traghan]

I definitely am skeptical, but those dimples if you notice are on the numismatic 1899 coin & the 1909 coin pic I posted. So if they faked these, then they were pretty thorough to add those dimples that were on several of the original real coins. I’ll try to weigh them, but I know there not magnetic & are silver, so I’ll find my scales & let you know. Weird coin to fake though & doesn’t make much sense. Thank you for helping me figure this out… I’m trying my best to make sure. I need to invest in those X-ray metal laser guns & it could confirm immediately. They’re just so expensive. I’ll let you know the weight. But look at those originals I posted & you’ll see the dimples… 

 

I have a feeling you’re right about them being fake, I had to order another scale, lost mine, but I’ll let you know what I find out Mike. Thank you so much for helping me. So weird though they’re choose these to fake, but nothing surprises me anymore….

[Sandon]

   Neither the NGC World Coin Price Guide nor my 2010 edition of the Standard Catalog of World Coins list a 1907 20 centime piece, nor a 1904, 1905 or 1906.  French Indo-China 20 Cents KM 10 Prices & Values | NGC (ngccoin.com) (Note the unevenness in the date numerals of the purported 1907.) Both the 1907 and 1909 dated coins are almost certainly counterfeits. The weight of genuine 1898-1916 issues would be 5.4 grams. 

   Since about 2005 large numbers of counterfeit coins of many countries and eras have been produced in and exported from mainland China. I understand that Chinese law permits the reproduction of all coins except for those issued by China since 1949. If you obtained these pieces in recent years, they may be of this recent vintage. While most of these counterfeits are base metal, it is not all that unusual for counterfeits to imitate the composition of genuine pieces, especially if the genuine ones have numismatic value well in excess of their bullion value, as some of these Indo-China pieces do. 

@Fenntucky Mike--You are correct that the "0.835" or "0.680" on the various genuine issues refers to the fineness, not the weight, which is the portion stated in grams. These coins were likely used in trade in other portions of Asia, and the legends aided in the valuation of the coins in local currency.  Similarly, the U.S. trade dollar states its weight and fineness of "420 grains, 900 fine." I have corrected my previous post.