What are the top unanswered questions in American numismatics today? 1 1

[VKurtB]

I'd like to understand why a guy gets awarded ANA Numismatist of the Year and decides not to show up to receive it. I drove 1,400 miles AND attended the award ceremony where it, and other awards, were given. I also witnessed a man's competitive exhibit in the "Literature" section barely evade disqualification because "all he did is copy documents from a library". (He actually did more.) I fought the good fight at the Exhibiting Committee meeting, labelling the issue as a PIJNIR: Problem in Judges, Not in Rules. Stupidity reigns high in many judges' minds, you know. Some of the stupid are even former ANA presidents.

Now, for. Henri's little problem. Relax, buddy. The likelihood that either of those MS68's end up in a Registry set is infinitesimally low. They may be in France today, and they probably are, where the idea of placing coins in competition with one another is likely considered "gauche". They are art, not scores. The longer they do NOT show up in any set, the less likely they are to EVER show up.

Edited August 14, 2023 by VKurtB

[Zebo]

From a recent book title - Where Did All Thr Dough Go? Or more precisely, where did all my dough go? 

Sorry Roger, couldn’t resist.
 

 

[RWB]

On 8/14/2023 at 4:30 PM, Zebo said:

From a recent book title - Where Did All Thr Dough Go? Or more precisely, where did all my dough go? 

Sorry Roger, couldn’t resist.
 

 

That's OK. Most collectors look at their 2x2 boxes and slabs or gold and silver; I look at a bookshelf and see where mine went.

[Zebo]

Here’s a question of mine, not a top numismatic question, but one of interest that does not directly concern U.S. coinage, but a U.S. institution. 
      James Smithson, an Englishman that never visited America, donated 104,960, or 105 bags, of newly minted 1838 sovereigns bearing the portrait of young Queen Victoria that led to the building of the Smithsonian. Most, if not all, of the sovereigns were melted and coined into half and quarter U.S. eagles. The Smithsonian currently displays two 1838 sovereigns, but cannot determine whether the two sovereigns were part of the original Smithson donation or were acquired later.

  I would love to find out the origins of the two sovereigns. So far, I have been unable to determine their origin.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Zebo
Photo

[RWB]

Zebo,

I will check my database. I have correspondence relating to the bequest and it might say something more about the fate of the sovereigns. (Might take a couple of days...schedule is kind of crammed right now.)

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB :

There's your answer: prior commitments. There is a precedent with a twist. George C. Scott appeared at the Academy Awards in 1971, but refused the award for Best Actor, on principle (presumably for his role in "Patton."

The distance you cited, 1400 miles, RT, closely approximates a one-way run to the end of the Florida Keys from New York City. The gasoline alone would exceed my annual rent.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Omission of fact.

[zadok]

On 8/14/2023 at 6:09 PM, Zebo said:

Here’s a question of mine, not a top numismatic question, but one of interest that does not directly concern U.S. coinage, but a U.S. institution. 
      James Smithson, an Englishman that never visited America, donated 104,960, or 105 bags, of newly minted 1838 sovereigns bearing the portrait of young Queen Victoria that led to the building of the Smithsonian. Most, if not all, of the sovereigns were melted and coined into half and quarter U.S. eagles. The Smithsonian currently displays two 1838 sovereigns, but cannot determine whether the two sovereigns were part of the original Smithson donation or were acquired later.

  I would love to find out the origins of the two sovereigns. So far, I have been unable to determine their origin.

 

...yes an interesting subject, i do remember seeing those coins when i was doing some cataloging there n i do not recall that their origin was recorded but that wasnt an area i was involved with...that was several moons ago n its possible that more info has been discovered as to acquisition....

[zadok]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:40 PM, VKurtB said:

I'd like to understand why a guy gets awarded ANA Numismatist of the Year and decides not to show up to receive it. I drove 1,400 miles AND attended the award ceremony where it, and other awards, were given. I also witnessed a man's competitive exhibit in the "Literature" section barely evade disqualification because "all he did is copy documents from a library". (He actually did more.) I fought the good fight at the Exhibiting Committee meeting, labelling the issue as a PIJNIR: Problem in Judges, Not in Rules. Stupidity reigns high in many judges' minds, you know. Some of the stupid are even former ANA presidents.

Now, for. Henri's little problem. Relax, buddy. The likelihood that either of those MS68's end up in a Registry set is infinitesimally low. They may be in France today, and they probably are, where the idea of placing coins in competition with one another is likely considered "gauche". They are art, not scores. The longer they do NOT show up in any set, the less likely they are to EVER show up.

...some collectors dont like advertising what they own for various reasons both personal n financial...i have numerous registry sets but those r ones i dont mind them being public knowledge, but as a rule i have not done so on any of my gold series, u never know when our govt mite try another cant own gold end run again...im doutbful that those roosters will ever go home to roost....

[Zebo]

On 8/14/2023 at 7:36 PM, zadok said:

...yes an interesting subject, i do remember seeing those coins when i was doing some cataloging there n i do not recall that their origin was recorded but that wasnt an area i was involved with...that was several moons ago n its possible that more info has been discovered as to acquisition....

According to the Smithsonian curator, they are not sure of the origin, just that they represent like sovereigns that were donated and melted.

[Henri Charriere]

Attn:  Grand Master:

There are no top unanswered questions in American numismatics today, or other any other day, for that matter.

There are, however, many unasked questions -- top, bottom, or strictly back-burner, in American numismatics, the answers to which, while not classified, fall squarely within the realm of "need to know."

For example, I was told point-blank yesterday, from a presumably knowledgeable source, that  "THERE IS NO GOLD IN FORT KNOX."

Frankly, I don't bother asking questions I already know I will not get a credible answer to.

PARTING SHOT:  No one, I repeat, NO ONE CAN PROVIDE CONCLUSIVE PROOF I HAVE GOLD IN MY POSSESSION, CONSTRUCTIVELY OR PHYSICALLY.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Reworded for clarity.

[RWB]

On 8/14/2023 at 7:24 PM, RWB said:

Zebo,

I will check my database. I have correspondence relating to the bequest and it might say something more about the fate of the sovereigns. (Might take a couple of days...schedule is kind of crammed right now.)

I have some original documents for you. They total 76 meg. If you PM your email I will upload them to Dropbox so you can get them.

[Zebo]

On 8/14/2023 at 9:24 PM, RWB said:

I have some original documents for you. They total 76 meg. If you PM your email I will upload them to Dropbox so you can get them.

Will do - thanks

[Jason Abshier]

On 8/13/2023 at 4:49 PM, World Colonial said:

In the past at YE, Heritage used to issue a press release where they broke out their auction volume measured by value for each major category they offer.  This included US and non-US coinage.  I didn't look for 2022 but you can find prior years (2019 or so at minimum) with an internet search.

This will confirm what I told you.

In checking their archives for my last post, I did notice that the count for the UK has gone up noticeably since my last search.  It was just under 40K the last time and now its 52K, about one in every eight "world" coins sold.   I also noticed the gap is closing in the overall ratio (with the US) but it's still lopsided, both by volume and value.  

A low number of countries account for a disproportionate pct. of "world" volume: UK, Germany, Canada, Mexico, China, and France in that order with the UK in the lead by a "country mile", almost twice Germany (including German states) which is marginally ahead of all other except for France. 40% to 45% of the total.

The archives don't provide an option to filter by sale date, and I didn't perform a manual count to try to quantify any change in distribution.  I know the ratio of US vs. "world" in aggregate has decreased somewhat over time, but that's all.

Heritage has Hong Kong based sales occasionally, so I assume much or maybe most of the more expensive Chinese and Hong Kong (colonial) coinage is consigned by locals since these sales commenced.  I also infer that Heritage receives major European collections in the Netherlands, any other offices they have there, or any agents if they have any.  Mostly though, that this coinage is consigned by and bought by US based collectors.

Note, the last paragraph is an inference, not "fact".

I agree with this statement over last few years I’ve been getting my nose beat bloody raw ! Bidding on German coinage on heritage where this great “boom” of bidders came from? I don’t know 🤷‍♂️! But several years ago I was able to bid on world coins on heritage flexible and easy the bidding pressure wasn’t there back then ….
 

fast forward Today ? It really blew up on heritage auction I rarely “try not to use” them anymore but some times I’m forced to they have some of nicest and Seldom seen coins I need for my collection I can’t find them anywhere else I have no choice but to fight in trenches (bidding wars) hope I come out as a winner … but I mostly do win 75% of my bidding wars come out licking my wounds earn my battle stripes …. Are these US bidders or European bidders I’m up against ? I have no clue 🤷‍♂️…  

Edited August 15, 2023 by Jason Abshier

[World Colonial]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:21 AM, Jason Abshier said:

Are these US bidders or European bidders I’m up against ? I have no clue 🤷‍♂️…  

Unless there has been a "meaningful" increase in TPG coins sold in Germany, predominantly likely not German bidders, though I will admit I can't explain any sudden change.  I haven't looked at German auctions lately and never looked at German dealer websites, only MA Shops or eBay in the past.

Germany is potentially somewhat different from other countries in the sense it's large enough where there is at least a potential resale market for the higher graded coins locally.  2nd or 3rd, after China.  I don't believe there is much of one but could be wrong about that.

This doesn't exist virtually anywhere else, outside of the countries already demonstrating a TPG preference: China, South Africa, and maybe Canada.

[Zebo]

Maybe Australia

[World Colonial]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:35 AM, Zebo said:

Maybe Australia

The lopsided proportion of Australian coins in holders are NCLT.  Last I checked, PCGS graded more than NGC for pre-decimal (one of the few) but it's a very low fraction of the total.

I have seen almost zero TPG coins in Noble Numismatics' auctions who I understand is the largest firm in the country.  Someone told me it's due to export requirements (which makes no sense to me) but doesn't seem prevalent there, except by financially motivated buyers.  I also suspect that at least a noticeable minority if not majority of NCLT is possibly owned by Americans, not necessarily locally.

[Nutmeg Coin]

What happened to the truly rare coins of which we have a record that they were minted and proferred to some VIP?  Such as the other 1849 Double Eagle, putatively the rarest US coin?

[VKurtB]

On 8/14/2023 at 7:57 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Attn:  Grand Master:

There are no top unanswered questions in American numismatics today, or other any other day, for that matter.

There are, however, many unasked questions -- top, bottom, or strictly back-burner, in American numismatics, the answers to which, while not classified, fall squarely within the realm of "need to know."

For example, I was told point-blank yesterday, from a presumably knowledgeable source, that  "THERE IS NO GOLD IN FORT KNOX."

Frankly, I don't bother asking questions I already know I will not get a credible answer to.

PARTING SHOT:  No one, I repeat, NO ONE CAN PROVIDE CONCLUSIVE PROOF I HAVE PHYSICAL OR CONSTRUCTIVE GOLD IN MY POSSESSION.  

So you were talking to a m-o-r-o-n then. There is MUCH gold in Fort Knox, but less than there used to be. Who has been getting it? Not directly, but by several steps, those who buy modern AGE's and other gold from the US Mint.

Edited August 15, 2023 by VKurtB

[Zebo]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:49 AM, World Colonial said:

The lopsided proportion of Australian coins in holders are NCLT.  Last I checked, PCGS graded more than NGC for pre-decimal (one of the few) but it's a very low fraction of the total.

I have seen almost zero TPG coins in Noble Numismatics' auctions who I understand is the largest firm in the country.  Someone told me it's due to export requirements (which makes no sense to me) but doesn't seem prevalent there, except by financially motivated buyers.  I also suspect that at least a noticeable minority if not majority of NCLT is possibly owned by Americans, not necessarily locally.

Two of the more well known dealers primarily sell PCGS graded coins, mainly pre-decimal. Never had an issue with buying or selling to Australia. A good portion of their sales goes to the US and UK.

[PSUMAN08]

Roger, I wonder if there is more information out there about what US coins (likely gold) that are considered rarities may not be if/when the next shipwreck is found.  A second topic, which I know Bowers has investigated, is what else can we find out about 1964D Peace Dollars.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/14/2023 at 8:57 PM, Henri Charriere said:

For example, I was told point-blank yesterday, from a presumably knowledgeable source, that  "THERE IS NO GOLD IN FORT KNOX." 

A congressional delegation conducted an audit in 1975 or 1976.  It included Ron Paul and other "gold bugs."

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/15/2023 at 10:07 AM, PSUMAN08 said:

Roger, I wonder if there is more information out there about what US coins (likely gold) that are considered rarities may not be if/when the next shipwreck is found.  

We know pretty much what ships went down and what they had on them.  At this point, unless the COST of an initial or subsequent salvage operation drops alot, it doesn't pay to spend big $$$ to retrieve coins and other objects that won't make a profit.  That's why a 3rd salvage of the SS Central America is not likely.

Hoards on land are a bigger threat to most U.S. coins, especially the trophy coins like the Double Eagles (LH and SG).

On 8/15/2023 at 10:07 AM, PSUMAN08 said:

 A second topic, which I know Bowers has investigated, is what else can we find out about 1964-D Peace Dollars.

I'll let the experts chime in, but I believe they were never "officially" struck though it's rumoured someone struck a few without authorization ?

Edited August 16, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:51 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

A congressional delegation conducted an audit in 1975 or 1976.  It included Ron Paul and other "gold bugs."

 

True. It was filmed in its entirety and accompanied by many officials.  But a lot can happen in nearly a half-century (and, as I recall, not every vault -- I believe there were eight, was opened).  Just how much gold is stored at West Point is anybody's guess. "Need to know," is the rule.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Routine die-polishing.

[Zebo]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:51 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

A congressional delegation conducted an audit in 1975 or 1976.  It included Ron Paul and other "gold bugs."

 

But no audit since then.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/15/2023 at 9:34 PM, Henri Charriere said:

True. It was filmed in its entirety and accompanied by many officials.  But a lot can happen in nearly a half-century (and, as I recall, not every vault -- I believe there were eight, was opened).  Just how much gold is stored at West Point is anybody's guess. "Need to know," is the rule.

There is also gold held in Lower Manhattan under the NY Federal Reserve Bank.  Mostly custodian for foreign banks, but some U.S. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:34 PM, Henri Charriere said:

True. It was filmed in its entirety and accompanied by many officials.  But a lot can happen in nearly a half-century (and, as I recall, not every vault -- I believe there were eight, was opened).  Just how much gold is stored at West Point is anybody's guess. "Need to know," is the rule.

And NOBODY NEEDS TO KNOW - LITERALLY NOBODY. There are OCCASIONAL transfers from Fort Knox to the New York Federal Reserve. And ALL that gold, whether on the banks of the Ohio River or the Hudson River, is property of the Mint Bureau of the United States Treasury Department. The Federal Reserve system owns EXACTLY and PRECISELY ZERO GOLD! None whatsoever. And it never has owned any.

Edited August 16, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:30 PM, VKurtB said:

And it never has owned any.

It "owned" gold before FDR's EO that mandated it transfer it to the Treasury.  Most of the Fed higher-ups objected.

[zadok]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:30 PM, VKurtB said:

And NOBODY NEEDS TO KNOW - LITERALLY NOBODY. There are OCCASIONAL transfers from Fort Knox to the New York Federal Reserve. And ALL that gold, whether on the banks of the Ohio River or the Hudson River, is property of the Mint Bureau of the United States Treasury Department. The Federal Reserve system owns EXACTLY and PRECISELY ZERO GOLD! None whatsoever. And it never has owned any.

...but i bet u theres someone on the internet selling ownership shares in it rite now....

[zadok]

On 8/16/2023 at 1:27 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It "owned" gold before FDR's EO that mandated it transfer it to the Treasury.  Most of the Fed higher-ups objected.

...all this discussion on gold, reminds me that many many moons ago one could obtain 1 sq inch of land in the gold rich klondike area of alaska thru ones cereal box, there just mite be a hoard out there somewhere, speaking of cereal boxes i also remember one could get foreign coins in ones cereal boxes too, i dont recall any foreign gold however...my reflections (read senile journeys) for the day....

[Nutmeg Coin]

On 8/16/2023 at 1:27 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It "owned" gold before FDR's EO that mandated it transfer it to the Treasury.  Most of the Fed higher-ups objected.

I had a customer whose father was in the car, who I met, when we did a transaction at Starbucks.   He had collected gold back in the 30s and had a couple stories.