Current delays on submissions 1 1

[VKurtB]

On 9/6/2023 at 10:20 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Let's be fair about this. You know my position on "Orange County," which one member years ago condemned as bashing (for excellent reasons) and I would imagine regular viewers know yours.  But in a court of Law, your comment would be characterized as "third-hand hearsay."  What is the source of your info? I cannot recall your having ever said you attended any of their functions, expos, shows, what-have-you. Even if you (doubtful) or someone you know (equally doubtful) submitted something to them, I don't believe you have enough data (insider tips?) upon which to base an informed opinion. I know next to nothing about them personally for no other reason than I am no longer a member and have nothing requiring their special brand of opinionated expertise, vis-a-vis technical vs. marketing grading.

Now, a warehouse full of pending submissions is very specific information and something your average member would not be aware of.  What I can state with certainty, without drawing any conclusions -- which can be confirmed by anyone so inclined is -- allow me to phrase this as a question: To what can the average collector attribute the fact that NGC has certified three times as many MS-67 gold "restrike" roosters than has the four-letter acronym, 182 vs. 63?  There are 48, or over four times as many certified by NGC for the date 1912, as there are for the four-letter service: only 10. A quote attributed to Mark Twain -- "There are 3 kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics" -- is inapplicable. Neither TPGS is lying, but the compilations of statistics (one calls a census; the other, population) suggest one of two things. One is grading strictly. The other not as much. Another way of looking at it is a matter of practicality... maybe the one with submissions piled to the rafters is taking things on the good foot and "expediting" the process.  I don't know and, lacking a Speed Graphic to worm my way thru crowds, I doubt anyone will confide in me any time soon. But I wonder... how do you know?  🤔 

 

The course I took at Summer Seminar was taught by two senior level folks from NGC. It was AUGMENTED by a special late afternoon / early evening presentation, BY INVITATION ONLY, called “A Look Inside NGC”, which was about 3/4 a “pitch” to come work for NGC. One attendee, other than the two instructors, was ALREADY working over the summer for NGC. The NGC folks took ALL questions, including mine about the salary vs. living expense mismatch in Sarasota. They agreed, 

Look, some people like to rummage through documents. I like to talk to the real people in this industry, and I get insider access beyond the press releases. That’s just what traveling to, and working hard at, ANA events gets me. I am on a first name basis with most of the bigwigs in the industry, and ALL of the key staff at the ANA. Even Jeff and Mary Lynn Garrett keep inviting Marie and me to dinner. Working FOR the ANA at EVERY show for more than a decade now does get me “unusual” access. 
 

Doing 2 or 3 ANA events per year, AND now being a key donor to the ANA, grants benefits no one living their numismatic life online will ever see. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/5/2023 at 11:06 AM, Nutmeg Coin said:

....  What kind of realistic turn-around times are people seeing on regular submissions?

FWIW... I distinctly recall a line from an NGC newsletter, a few days ago, advising they were beginning to work on submissions received on August 9th.  I think it safe to say regular submissions are taking at least 30 days. [No one's brought it up yet, but there is more than one submission center as well as a slew of authorized dealers who routinely send in bulk quantities as well.]

[VKurtB]

On 9/11/2023 at 6:17 PM, Henri Charriere said:

FWIW... I distinctly recall a line from an NGC newsletter, a few days ago, advising they were beginning to work on submissions received on August 9th.  I think it safe to say regular submissions are taking at least 30 days. [No one's brought it up yet, but there is more than one submission center as well as a slew of authorized dealers who routinely send in bulk quantities as well.]

Not really. There is only Sarasota in this country. All coins from Americans pass through there. 

[Nutmeg Coin]

On 9/11/2023 at 7:17 PM, Henri Charriere said:

FWIW... I distinctly recall a line from an NGC newsletter, a few days ago, advising they were beginning to work on submissions received on August 9th.  I think it safe to say regular submissions are taking at least 30 days. [No one's brought it up yet, but there is more than one submission center as well as a slew of authorized dealers who routinely send in bulk quantities as well.]

"Now opening packages delivered the week of August 21, 2023."   I have one submission well over 10 days over target time for being done, graded over a month ago waiting for slabbing.   When I've called all I get is there was a hurricane and someone was out sick, this with a company of 700 employees according to VKurtB.

[zadok]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:48 AM, Nutmeg Coin said:

"Now opening packages delivered the week of August 21, 2023."   I have one submission well over 10 days over target time for being done, graded over a month ago waiting for slabbing.   When I've called all I get is there was a hurricane and someone was out sick, this with a company of 700 employees according to VKurtB.

...so which do u prefer, a rush job or have their most appropriate grader for the coins u submitted?...what does a week or two difference actually matter?...i dont understand the obsession with deadlines n submission turnarounds....

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:21 AM, zadok said:

...i dont understand the obsession with deadlines n submission turnarounds....

I have an explanation... and it's psychological in nature, so much so, that one member had written in, "Can NGC be trusted?"  It all boils down to how much what you've submitted means to you when it is out of your hands. This extends to ground delivery services, local depots, etc.  Insurance and a tracking number are fine while your widow's mite or newly-discovered sixth 1913 V-nickel is in transit, but when your priceless or sentimental piece languishes in isolation without so much as a peep, you worry. Perfectly understandable.  Hopefully, a respectable grade will have made the entire ordeal worthwhile. That's my take...

[Sandon]

    In all likelihood the delays at both NGC and PCGS are largely due to a combination of bulk submissions of modern collectors' issues and bullion coins by dealers and submissions of low value coins that aren't worth the cost of certification by new or uneducated collectors. In each case the fault is ultimately that of collectors who believe that all of their coins must be third-party graded and refuse to collect them in mint packaging, coin albums, or other appropriate holders. The grading services make money from such submissions and have no incentive to discourage them.

[Nutmeg Coin]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:21 AM, zadok said:

...so which do u prefer, a rush job or have their most appropriate grader for the coins u submitted?...what does a week or two difference actually matter?...i dont understand the obsession with deadlines n submission turnarounds....

80% of the graders at PCGS, NGC, ICG and Anacs agree on grades, so the idea that waiting somehow equates to more accurate or better grading is complete and utter balderdash!   Plus it's besides the point.   The one submission I have with them was graded a month ago!  And it is waiting for final slabbing, and shipping.   

No responsible business operates with this type of arbitrary business practice, customer service says they will try to find out why the submission is way longer than the projected time but nothing happens week after week!  

[Nutmeg Coin]

On 9/22/2023 at 1:31 PM, Sandon said:

    In all likelihood the delays at both NGC and PCGS are largely due to a combination of bulk submissions of modern collectors' issues and bullion coins by dealers and submissions of low value coins that aren't worth the cost of certification by new or uneducated collectors. In each case the fault is ultimately that of collectors who believe that all of their coins must be third-party graded and refuse to collect them in mint packaging, coin albums, or other appropriate holders. The grading services make money from such submissions and have no incentive to discourage them.

It's standard operating practice to anticipate the delays and hire more staff at busy times.  They are making a huge amount of money in this business, so there really is no excuse for these delays unless a genuine extended disaster hit.

[ldhair]

It's not easy to bring in new staff with a business like this. Graders take time to get up to speed with the standards that NGC has set. What would they do with the new help once they get caught up? They can't just get rid of them when it's not busy. I could be wrong but I don't feel many graders are looking for a temp. position. 

The cost of training is important to any business. They can't just throw them away at will and find new workers with skills the next time things get busy. 

All the services run behind at times and that will never change. 

 

[J P M]

On 9/24/2023 at 6:54 AM, ldhair said:

It's not easy to bring in new staff with a business like this. Graders take time to get up to speed with the standards that NGC has set. What would they do with the new help once they get caught up? They can't just get rid of them when it's not busy. I could be wrong but I don't feel many graders are looking for a temp. position. 

The cost of training is important to any business. They can't just throw them away at will and find new workers with skills the next time things get busy. 

All the services run behind at times and that will never change. 

 

Did I hear that NGC changed hands and this past year they lost some quality members of the staff also ? That could throw a monkey wrench into the works .

Edited September 24, 2023 by J P M

[numisport]

On 7/5/2023 at 11:06 AM, Nutmeg Coin said:

I sent in a couple submissions overnight express last week and was waiting to have them logged in.  I was told that they did not pick up mail on Friday and were closed until today.   What kind of realistic turn-around times are people seeing on regular submissions?

My last submission was only reholdering. It was recieved as I tracked it and was not logged in until about 10 days later.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/24/2023 at 6:54 AM, ldhair said:

.... I could be wrong but I don't feel many graders are looking for a temp. position....

 

Grading services have been around a very long time.  (I would pay good money to see how the blocks stack up on graphs indicating age of members and how long they have in business.)  What all these hand-over-fist businesses can do, is what UPS, FedEx and Macy*s do in time for Black Friday sales and the Christmas rush: hire experienced retired Temps, i.e. graders. It's not like ONE grader exercises his divine power over all.  There's been some talk about Monster boxes and bulk submissions.  How difficult can it possibly be to grade a coin straight from the Mint that's going to be re-examined immediately by the next person on the assembly line?  In fact, I would divide the line into two. Have the really experienced graders work on the classics, and leave the stuff that really ought not to be graded at all left to the apprentices.  That ought to make enough a dent in the backlog. It's either that or adopt the Q.A. approach to submissions:  patience being a virtue, simply exercise some. One more thought:  submission fees aren't revised, I believe, for another 90-plus days. If your submission is in, you're In Like Flint.

[VKurtB]

I’m afraid that @Nutmeg Coin is all wet here. There ARE specialists that are hired for particular types of coins. The beginners, making barely enough money to scrape by in Sarasota, are relegated to mostly bullion and modern NCLT, the analog of sweatshop work. The whole range of grades is 68-70. There is an absolute shortage of qualified graders of classical coins. The grading contest results at major shows prove that. Even most experienced show-going numismatists can’t grade worth a lick. 

[VKurtB]

Both major (and I exclude ICG and ANACS) grading firms are indeed now owned by private equity firms. That is seldom good for ANYONE’S interests other than the principle owners of the private equity firm. TYPICALLY, staff gets squeezed, customers get screwed, and service goes to hell. New lower paid staff gets hired and the good people depart. “Break it apart, sell off the good parts, and load up the rest with debt and declare bankruptcy” is the USUAL result of private equity involvement. Will it happen to both these firms? Time will tell, but the EARLIEST signs are not encouraging. My advice is to submit your coins and forget you ever owned them. They’ll show up eventually. Or don’t, and keep more coins raw. Fancy plastic is neither a need nor an entitlement. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by VKurtB

[Nutmeg Coin]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:23 AM, VKurtB said:

I’m afraid that @Nutmeg Coin is all wet here. There ARE specialists that are hired for particular types of coins. The beginners, making barely enough money to scrape by in Sarasota, are relegated to mostly bullion and modern NCLT, the analog of sweatshop work. The whole range of grades is 68-70. There is an absolute shortage of qualified graders of classical coins. The grading contest results at major shows prove that. Even most experienced show-going numismatists can’t grade worth a lick. 

When you have no logic to support your position that whatever the company wants to do with submissions is hunky dory then you have to resort to calling names.   If you want to schmooze with the companies at shows that's all well and good, but you're not running a business that depends on reasonable turn around times, many dealers have their capital tied up and don't want to pay high rates for grading.  And has been discussed it's not about the grading it's about the slabbing and the order entry that is now happening well over a month after the package arrives.  Is there any other business in America that takes over a month to open customer orders like this?  

[zadok]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:51 AM, Nutmeg Coin said:

When you have no logic to support your position that whatever the company wants to do with submissions is hunky dory then you have to resort to calling names.   If you want to schmooze with the companies at shows that's all well and good, but you're not running a business that depends on reasonable turn around times, many dealers have their capital tied up and don't want to pay high rates for grading.  And has been discussed it's not about the grading it's about the slabbing and the order entry that is now happening well over a month after the package arrives.  Is there any other business in America that takes over a month to open customer orders like this?  

...u r obviously in the wrong hobby/business...numismatic certification is a big-boys pants endeavor with all its warts, either deal with it or go elsewhere...dealers r aware of the turn arounds n rates n adjust their capital requirements accordingly collectors r along for just the ride n go with the flow...this happens to be what it currently is, whiners beware....

[VKurtB]

On 9/25/2023 at 6:12 PM, zadok said:

...u r obviously in the wrong hobby/business...numismatic certification is a big-boys pants endeavor with all its warts, either deal with it or go elsewhere...dealers r aware of the turn arounds n rates n adjust their capital requirements accordingly collectors r along for just the ride n go with the flow...this happens to be what it currently is, whiners beware....

… or maybe just don’t have every darned coin slabbed. Overslabbing is at the very core of this problem. 

[zadok]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:06 PM, VKurtB said:

… or maybe just don’t have every darned coin slabbed. Overslabbing is at the very core of this problem. 

...true, i remember in '85-86 u couldnt get common garbage coins certified, liked it better then but as always no one going to leave the money on the table....

[Henri Charriere]

I believe those who are unsympathetic to the OP's plight, are either unwilling or unable to view things from his perspective.

To begin with, we do not know anything about the coin(s) he submitted.  Any hobbyist's greatest fear is No News very frequently becomes Bad News.  All the gentleman seeks is reassurance from experienced submitters that due to any number of factors beyond their control, turn-around times go askew. That's it. Nothing more.  I may be wrong, with zero hard facts or anecdotal evidence to assert the following statement, but NGC's record to date suggests no major incidences/mishaps have occurred with shipments in their immediate care, custody and control.  IF the reverse were true, consumer confidence would be irreparably harmed or lost altogether.  I cannot account for the inordinate delay involved but would urge the OP to give NGC the benefit of the doubt.  When the transaction is completed, I am sure the membership would appreciate being apprised of the details as reconstructed from the notes you've kept. 

[zadok]

...an old saying bout hot kitchens comes to mind....

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:34 PM, zadok said:

...an old saying bout hot kitchens comes to mind....

[That saying did come to mind, but something far more significant occurred to me...  I believe I am the only member in NGC's long and storied history to single-handledly manage to wrangle the first, and possibly only, upper-case letter from you with little or no effort.  You continue to shower me with undeserved adulation and I am humbly gratified.] 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Clarification

[zadok]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:58 PM, Henri Charriere said:

[That saying did come to mind, but something far more significant occurred to me...  I believe I am the only member in NGC's long and storied history to single-handledly manage to wrangle the first, and possibly only, upper-case letter from you with little or no effort.  You continue to shower me with undeserved adulation and I am humbly gratified.] 

...significant diff tween adulation n "addledation"...im going with the latter....

[Nutmeg Coin]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:12 PM, zadok said:

...u r obviously in the wrong hobby/business...numismatic certification is a big-boys pants endeavor with all its warts, either deal with it or go elsewhere...dealers r aware of the turn arounds n rates n adjust their capital requirements accordingly collectors r along for just the ride n go with the flow...this happens to be what it currently is, whiners beware....

You apparently want to justify arbitrary turn-around times, I personally do not know any other business that is taking over a month to open mail:  "Now opening packages delivered the week of August 24, 2023".   The only thing I can think of is that you have a business association with NGC and therefore have a bias.  An honest posted turn-around time would add on the wait to open submissions.   

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/26/2023 at 9:56 AM, zadok said:

...significant diff tween adulation n "addledation"...im going with the latter....

That's addlePation (with a "p.")  Inapplicable here. I hold you in the highest regard.  Now, back to the topic at hand... What if you are seized with an irresistible compulsion to have your example from Yap submitted only to learn it had been smashed to smithereens?  I would like to see the kinder, gentler you when conversing with members whose submissions have gone awry. (Anything can be holdered; museums do it all the time.)

[zadok]

On 9/26/2023 at 12:03 PM, Henri Charriere said:

That's addlePation (with a "p.")  Inapplicable here. I hold you in the highest regard.  Now, back to the topic at hand... What if you are seized with an irresistible compulsion to have your example from Yap submitted only to learn it had been smashed to smithereens?  I would like to see the kinder, gentler you when conversing with members whose submissions have gone awry. (Anything can be holdered; museums do it all the time.)

...there is no awry...things r just running their course, there is no kinder gentler me when grown ups need to just suck it up n learn to adjust to reality...its way past addlepation hence the omitted P...i dont have irresistible compulsions just goal oriented accomplishments....

[zadok]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:37 AM, Nutmeg Coin said:

You apparently want to justify arbitrary turn-around times, I personally do not know any other business that is taking over a month to open mail:  "Now opening packages delivered the week of August 24, 2023".   The only thing I can think of is that you have a business association with NGC and therefore have a bias.  An honest posted turn-around time would add on the wait to open submissions.   

...i want to justify having the best graders working in their areas of expertise...not interested in expedited turn-around times, same with my surgeons, get it right not fast...only business association i have is im my own CEO....

[Henri Charriere]

To the OP:  Not to belabor this any more than necessary, but "Houston, we've got an [intractable] problem." The gentleman who harangues us -- any by extension, the rest of the captive audience -- has prevailed in every "argument," i.e., exchange of thoughts he's had with all comers.  I relish every such encounter which can occur at any time because with each such back-and-forth he inadvertently reveals a little more of himself. Unfortunately, all comes to naught because tho he has but two followers he has never experienced a check, or check-mate. He has never contradicted himself. He has never been proven wrong.  He is a contender. And a survivor having endured the Forum for five tempestuous years [which has seen me banned permanently three times.]

Your predicament is not unique.  There is enough wiggle room in grading and submissions to drive a Mack truck through with ease.  Your submission is safe and sound.  Before you know it, it will be winging its way back home to you.  I chalk it all up to yet another enduring mystery of life.  NGC monitors these boards.  I would not be surprised at all if your order is expedited.