Would this be a 1899 micro o? 1 1

[xinfantry]

I'm looking at purchasing this 1899 o morgan and have been told by the owner that it is indeed a micro o.

 

I would just like to see what other like minded individuals think.

 

Thank you.

[Mr.Bill347]

In my opinion. No. Below is the PCGS coin facts photo of each. Yours , including the die crack, is a 1899:O.

[VKurtB]

I swear I heard last week at Summer Seminar that now ALL (all means all) micro O Morgans are now believed to be counterfeits, made in about the 1920's.

[J P M]

On 6/27/2023 at 8:24 PM, VKurtB said:

I swear I heard last week at Summer Seminar that now ALL (all means all) micro O Morgans are now believed to be counterfeits, made in about the 1920's.

So I guess that makes the premium for those Morgan's a bit overrated. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by J P M

[EagleRJO]

On 6/27/2023 at 8:24 PM, VKurtB said:

... now ALL (all means all) micro O Morgans are now believed to be counterfeits ...

If it's "All" then that would be like over 2,000 counterfeit 1899-O "Micro O" Morgans in holders just between NGC and PCGS!

[EagleRJO]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:40 PM, xinfantry said:

... 1899 o morgan and have been told by the owner that it is indeed a micro o ...

It kind of looks like a "Micro O" to me doing a sliced side by side comparison, but you really need a better picture of the reverse as the one posted gets blurry when enlarged.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 6/27/2023 at 9:02 PM, EagleRJO said:

If it's "All" then that would be like over 2,000 counterfeit 1899-O "Micro O" Morgans in holders just between NGC and PCGS!

Those putting forth this view are completely aware of the implications. I am not a Morgan guy, but the conversation caught my ear. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Too many marks in common with known fakes. That's a sign of a transfer die counterfeit.

Edited June 28, 2023 by VKurtB

[Sandon]

  @xinfantry--Welcome to the NGC chat board.     

   @VKurtB--Although Morgan dollars dated 1896, 1900, and 1902 with "micro O" mintmarks are now generally believed to be contemporary counterfeits made for use as money, the 1899-O micro Os are regarded as genuine, with five different recognized die varieties listed as VAM nos. 4, 5, 6, 31 and 32, the VAM 6 reverse having been used as the model for the counterfeits.  See 1899 Micro O Guide - VAMWorld (ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com). The mint mark punch used appears to have been the one meant for use on Barber quarter dies of that era. (Note, however, that in recent years it is likely that counterfeits all dates and mints of Morgan dollars have been produced in Asia.)

   Most 1880-O Morgan dollars also have a "micro O" mintmark, and I have never before heard of anyone doubting their authenticity.  

   The larger "O" used on most 1899-O Morgan dollars is the same or very similar to that appearing on all other New Orleans mint pieces dated from 1885 to 1887 and 1890 to 1904 (and some 1884-Os and most 1888 and 1889-Os), so it shouldn't be difficult for @xinfantry to find an example to compare with the coin he is being offered. The photo is too blurry to tell for sure, but it appears to me to be the more common larger "O".

Edited June 28, 2023 by Sandon

[EagleRJO]

On 6/27/2023 at 11:22 PM, Sandon said:

Morgan dollars dated 1896, 1900, and 1902 with "micro O" mintmarks are now generally believed to be contemporary counterfeits made for use as money, the 1899-O micro Os are regarded as genuine

That is my understanding also.  So the "all" may have been a reference to "all the others".

Btw, @xinfantry if you can get better pics of both sides the best way to verify it's a 1899-O "Micro O" is to follow the VamWorld "1899-O Micro O Attribution Guide" found at the following site, and then verify that with the coin in-hand.

http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1899_Micro_O_Guide

Edited June 28, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

Hello and welcome!

In my opinion, I think you have a normal O. The micro O seemed to fit about just perfectly between the two ends of the ribbon above it, and it also has a noticeably wide field between the mintmark and the DO in Dollar. The 1899 micro O also seems to have a little tilt towards 1 o clock.

The normal O extends into the two ends of the ribbon and has less field between DO in Dollar. It also is righted at 12 o clock. 

Yours to me looks like the normal O.

[VKurtB]

On 6/27/2023 at 10:22 PM, Sandon said:

  @xinfantry--Welcome to the NGC chat board.     

   @VKurtB--Although Morgan dollars dated 1896, 1900, and 1902 with "micro O" mintmarks are now generally believed to be contemporary counterfeits made for use as money, the 1899-O micro Os are regarded as genuine, with five different recognized die varieties listed as VAM nos. 4, 5, 6, 31 and 32, the VAM 6 reverse having been used as the model for the counterfeits.  See 1899 Micro O Guide - VAMWorld (ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com). The mint mark punch used appears to have been the one meant for use on Barber quarter dies of that era. (Note, however, that in recent years it is likely that counterfeits all dates and mints of Morgan dollars have been produced in Asia.)

   Most 1880-O Morgan dollars also have a "micro O" mintmark, and I have never before heard of anyone doubting their authenticity.  

   The larger "O" used on most 1899-O Morgan dollars is the same or very similar to that appearing on all other New Orleans mint pieces dated from 1885 to 1887 and 1890 to 1904 (and some 1884-Os and most 1888 and 1889-Os), so it shouldn't be difficult for @xinfantry to find an example to compare with the coin he is being offered. The photo is too blurry to tell for sure, but it appears to me to be the more common larger "O".

@Sandon, the people in whose conversation I overheard were discussing information so new that it has not had time to get into the numismatic media yet. It is literally less than two weeks old. They were aware how earth-shattering it would be, if it turns out to be verifiable.

Edited June 30, 2023 by VKurtB