Those interested in Eagles and Double Eagles might look at the Fairmont Collection auction 1 1

[RWB]

Stacks-Bowers is handling the sale in August.

The URL is: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/auctions/3-13PV75/auction-preview-the-fairmont-collection-rhone-set-featured-in-the-upcoming-august-2023-auction?limit=36&coin_finish=1-11DJZ

In my opinion (others will disagree) almost all of the coins are overgraded. Here's an example that is supposed top be "MS-65." You can decide if a common date Eagle of that grade should have deep cuts and bumps in prominent visual areas -- or, in fact, anywhere. [Lot Description - 1926 Indian Eagle. MS-65 (PCGS). No lot number assigned at present.]

Edited June 25, 2023 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

Henri and Zadok have talked about the Fairmont Coins for a while here, but good to have their own thread. 

Do we have a tally to date on what has been sold/offered ?

[VKurtB]

A prime example proving that gold is just graded differently. Is that over grading? I don’t know. But gold is typically being given free passes, and has for quite a few years now. Maybe because each coin had to swim back across the Atlantic to get back here. LOL!

[zadok]

On 6/25/2023 at 8:38 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Henri and Zadok have talked about the Fairmont Coins for a while here, but good to have their own thread. 

Do we have a tally to date on what has been sold/offered ?

...not really, but do we really need a tally? prob not for the average collector...im fairly certain that SB either have or at some point in the future will have a full inventory but will they or even should they make that public? not really, n if someone wants to write/publish a book on it, why not it be done in-house?...if anyone is interested in creating a tally of what has been sold so far thru auction its just a matter of consolidating all of the SB Fairmont auctions n keep a running tally, this will not however provide any/all of the coins sold privately...sure the inventory of this vast accumulation of gold coins can provide some insights into current availability of many dates n aggregate grades, thereby confirming either scarcity or exposing non-scarcity, sort of important to know before making substantial investments on certain dates...one of the most interesting findings, at least to me, is the ability to determine the diff coloration of the gold from the diff mints, interesting but not something to write a book on...dispersal of the coins in "dribs n drabs" as u call it was a business/market decision n i believe an astute one...in ur area of interest, DE, most of the previous thoughts on rarity have been pretty much confirmed...if u personally r interested in obtaining examples not thru the auctions PM me n ill give u a contact number to do so....

[zadok]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:55 AM, VKurtB said:

A prime example proving that gold is just graded differently. Is that over grading? I don’t know. But gold is typically being given free passes, and has for quite a few years now. Maybe because each coin had to swim back across the Atlantic to get back here. LOL!

...i believe u have a valid observational point, early copper is graded diff than new, gold is also graded diff than silver...but shouldnt it be that way?...there r many variables in grading especially so in unc coins before they r entered into circulation, it is not an empirical determination nor should it be...in fact i personally do not believe that "grading" is required at all, but thats just my take on it, worth nothing....

[VKurtB]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:41 AM, zadok said:

...i believe u have a valid observational point, early copper is graded diff than new, gold is also graded diff than silver...but shouldnt it be that way?...there r many variables in grading especially so in unc coins before they r entered into circulation, it is not an empirical determination nor should it be...in fact i personally do not believe that "grading" is required at all, but thats just my take on it, worth nothing....

Good point. 

[Zebo]

On 6/25/2023 at 3:43 PM, RWB said:

Here's an example that is supposed top be "MS-65."

Compare with the below, same grade? Higher grade? Lower grade?

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Zebo

[Henri Charriere]

I would like to suggest, without further elaboration, that this is a trick interrogatory.

[VKurtB]

On 6/26/2023 at 9:14 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I would like to suggest, without further elaboration, that this is a trick interrogatory.

Ever notice that the Indian on these $10 coins has "Ricky Nelson mouth"? Hey Dave, let's go play headdresses with Wally.

[Coinbuf]

Fairmont, the collection that keeps on giving, and giving, and giving.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/26/2023 at 11:41 AM, zadok said:

...i believe u have a valid observational point, early copper is graded diff than new, gold is also graded diff than silver...but shouldnt it be that way?...there r many variables in grading especially so in unc coins before they r entered into circulation, it is not an empirical determination nor should it be...in fact i personally do not believe that "grading" is required at all, but thats just my take on it, worth nothing....

The size of the coin...the strike (elevated details or not)...the hardness of the metal.

I believe CAC takes into account those variable insofar as you won't find as many bagmarks on smaller, harder metal coins as you will on a larger, softer gold coin.  I guess silver is between gold and nickel in hardness ? 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:14 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I would like to suggest, without further elaboration, that this is a trick interrogatory.

Is that anything like trick photography ? 

Edited June 28, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 6/28/2023 at 12:33 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The size of the coin...the strike (elevated details or not)...the hardness of the metal.

I believe CAC takes into account those variable insofar as you won't find as many bagmarks on smaller, harder metal coins as you will on a larger, softer gold coin.  I guess silver is between gold and nickel in hardness ? 

...all of what u mention enters into evaluating the eye appeal n appearance of a coin...obviously a large gold coin with high relief design will incur more marks in the post minting process n handling n transporting of the coin before entering circulation than a smaller harder alloy coin with low relief design will in the post minting process...after all, grading is just a quantifying/qualifying scheme to tell us what our eyes already tell us n a scheme that is not truly needed to collect coins...the marketization/financialization of the hobby needs the grading scheme not the collector...back to grading, its not realistic to grade all coins with the exact same criteria...probably the grading with the biggest differential is in the disparity between early copper n modern copper, but again there r varying factors i.e. planchet quality/preparation, minting process/equipment, handling etc etc...n then design elements come into play in grading, larger coins especially those with big open fields n high relief central designs obviously show even minor contact marks more prevalently than those coins with smaller field to design ratios...there r some commemorative half dollars with such congested designs that it would be almost impossible to grade empirically...having said all this, one could propose that every coin design should have its own grading criteria, which would be overwhelming to the hobby....

Edited June 28, 2023 by zadok
spelling

[VKurtB]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:13 AM, zadok said:

...all of what u mention enters into evaluating the eye appeal n appearance of a coin...obviously a large gold coin with high relief design will incur more marks in the post minting process n handling n transporting of the coin before entering circulation than a smaller harder alloy coin with low relief design will in the post minting process...after all, grading is just a quantifying/qualifying scheme to tell us what our eyes already tell us n a scheme that is not truly needed to collect coins...the marketization/financialization of the hobby needs the grading scheme not the collector...back to grading, its not realistic to grade all coins with the exact same criteria...probably the grading with the biggest differential is in the disparity between early copper n modern copper, but again there r varying factors i.e. planchet quality/preparation, minting process/equipment, handling etc etc...n then design elements come into play in grading, larger coins especially those with big open fields n high relief central designs obviously show even minor contact marks more prevalently than those coins with smaller field to design ratios...there r some commemorative half dollars with such congested designs that it would be almost impossible to grade empirically...having said all this, one could propose that every coin design should have its own grading criteria, which would be overwhelming to the hobby....

Just wait for the circulating Jovita Idar quarters in a few weeks. Talk about wide open fields!!! Yes, the Innovation dollars and the Boys Town commem dollars had wide open fields, but they didn't/don't suffer the ravages of circulation.

[RWB]

Research by the Royal Mint in the latter 19th century revealed that the initial surface of British sovereigns was actually harder than of silver. Only after slight wear did gold coin alloy test a little softer than silver.

There is no rationale for "grading" silver or gold coins differently. Pure copper is softer, but not by a lot.

Edited June 28, 2023 by RWB

[zadok]

...no clue what criteria the royal mint may or may not have used in any century...while the hardness of gold n silver is virtually interchangeable their malleability is not, gold's malleability is much higher than that of silver n therefore more susceptible to dents, bagmarks, teeth marks, footnote abuse n meteorite strikes than silver....

[Henri Charriere]

I am frankly surprised not a single experienced collector has weighed in without so much as a query as to the availability for viewing of the other 50% of the coin.

[VKurtB]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:36 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I am frankly surprised not a single experienced collector has weighed in without so much as a query as to the availability for viewing of the other 50% of the coin.

I’ve seen it before.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Guest Commentator at Doug Winter's blog has some outstanding analysis on The Fairmont Collection. 

Last 2 commentaries really go in-depth to determine the composition of what has been released...what might still be out there....where the hoard supply risk is....etc:

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog?category=Market Blog

Of Note:  the January 2024 post...scroll towards the bottom.....excellent summary of all the number-crunching and gives a nice summary....appears that this "hoard" is just under 400,000 total coins when you take into account ungradeds, details, etc.  It really is massive.   Could be one of the largest gold/coin hoards of U.S. coins ever, huh ?

His analysis seems to be more on the composition of the hoard than where it may have come from (since that is really a speculative thing that I'm not sure we can know).  I'm going to re-read the posts to see if I glossed over anything and see if I can follow the intricate guestimating he does on the composition of the denominations and supply.  Quite frankly, the secrecy thing really bugs me  -- especially after the coins have been sold and marketed, why not give us the damn information ? -- it's not the codes to the nuclear black box. 

Stacks-Bowers must know more details (they are handling the sales) and David Bowers, a numismatic researcher we all respect has dug into past hoards and is a partner, so maybe there's some hope left that we'll get more details.  I understand that they have a fiduciary and business obligation to maximize the sale proceeds and if they believe giving out information like that would have (or still would) negatively impact pricing, I get being quiet.  Of course, that wasn't the case with the (smaller) Saddle Ridge Hoard.

We saw the same lack of details on the 1908 No Motto Wells Fargo Saint Hoard so let's not hope for a repeat.

[RWB]

Trying to analyze the date/mint/denomination distribution of a hoard is pointless unless provenance to this hoard can be established for all pieces under consideration.

[zadok]

On 2/4/2024 at 11:34 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Guest Commentator at Doug Winter's blog has some outstanding analysis on The Fairmont Collection. 

Last 2 commentaries really go in-depth to determine the composition of what has been released...what might still be out there....where the hoard supply risk is....etc:

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog?category=Market Blog

Of Note:  the January 2024 post...scroll towards the bottom.....excellent summary of all the number-crunching and gives a nice summary....appears that this "hoard" is just under 400,000 total coins when you take into account ungradeds, details, etc.  It really is massive.   Could be one of the largest gold/coin hoards of U.S. coins ever, huh ?

His analysis seems to be more on the composition of the hoard than where it may have come from (since that is really a speculative thing that I'm not sure we can know).  I'm going to re-read the posts to see if I glossed over anything and see if I can follow the intricate guestimating he does on the composition of the denominations and supply.  Quite frankly, the secrecy thing really bugs me  -- especially after the coins have been sold and marketed, why not give us the damn information ? -- it's not the codes to the nuclear black box. 

Stacks-Bowers must know more details (they are handling the sales) and David Bowers, a numismatic researcher we all respect has dug into past hoards and is a partner, so maybe there's some hope left that we'll get more details.  I understand that they have a fiduciary and business obligation to maximize the sale proceeds and if they believe giving out information like that would have (or still would) negatively impact pricing, I get being quiet.  Of course, that wasn't the case with the (smaller) Saddle Ridge Hoard.

We saw the same lack of details on the 1908 No Motto Wells Fargo Saint Hoard so let's not hope for a repeat.

...u seek too much...as we have discussed many times, the dispersal of this accumulation is by design...the pural of hoards is hoard...the distribution by dates, mints, grades n denominations will be retrievable eventually...where the coins came from originally (read multi-source) is not relevant ....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/4/2024 at 2:47 PM, RWB said:

Trying to analyze the date/mint/denomination distribution of a hoard is pointless unless provenance to this hoard can be established for all pieces under consideration.

What do you mean by that exactly ?  I'm sure SB would have wanted proof and got it if it was just one huge hoard or several large ones....the difficulty and potential subterfuge could come into play if instead it is DOZENS of separate collections, hoards, SDBs, etc.

Then you just tabulate them all at the Fairmont Hotel and call it ALL the Fairmont Collection !  

Clearly, SB isn't talking -- at least right now -- but you would think DB's presence on the masthead would lead to it coming out some time. 

Hey, maybe he'll give the details in a new edition of the Whitman Red Book on Double Eagles -- it's been 20 years !!! 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/4/2024 at 4:10 PM, zadok said:

...u seek too much...as we have discussed many times, the dispersal of this accumulation is by design...the pural of hoards is hoard...the distribution by dates, mints, grades n denominations will be retrievable eventually...

Yes, agreed....should be interesting. 

On 2/4/2024 at 4:10 PM, zadok said:

where the coins came from originally (read multi-source) is not relevant ....

No, but it IS interesting. 

Especially to those of us without the $$$ to buy 'em !!!    Seriously, I do spend lots of time on the research end of this hobby, wish I could spend more time on the buying end but that's life.  So I do hope the information comes out and with DB part of the masthead at SB, I am optimistic. 

Edited February 5 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Looks like the CERTIFIED and PEDIGREED (that is sent to a TPG and given the Fairmont label) is about 6,700 coins.

There could be a much larger number that were sent in for certification but not ID'd as Fairmont coins on the label because they weren't as valaable as the 1st group above.

The 3rd group would be the hoard coins itself not sent in for basic certification (not worth it, too common and/or worn).

Again, the 2-part blog really goes in-depth into the population reports and does a good and understandable analysis.  HIGHLY recommended !!  

[zadok]

On 2/4/2024 at 5:54 PM, Henri Charriere said:

ABSOLUTE LIE!  (To quoute the late, great Oldhoop: GO LOOK IT UP!)

...u should refrain from referencing his name, im positive he would find it repulsive...u made his last few months miserable, so much so he left the forum which im certain he received enjoyment from until he didnt...try to find some respect n quit coat-tailing on his good name...for that matter u can do the same in regard to referencing my name in ur frivolous ramblings...take this as a formal request....

[zadok]

On 2/5/2024 at 10:36 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Looks like the CERTIFIED and PEDIGREED (that is sent to a TPG and given the Fairmont label) is about 6,700 coins.

There could be a much larger number that were sent in for certification but not ID'd as Fairmont coins on the label because they weren't as valaable as the 1st group above.

The 3rd group would be the hoard coins itself not sent in for basic certification (not worth it, too common and/or worn).

Again, the 2-part blog really goes in-depth into the population reports and does a good and understandable analysis.  HIGHLY recommended !!  

...rest assured there was a comprehensive inventory compiled of all the coins in the accumulation referred to as the"Fairmont" coins, im certain the owner(s) have full accountability...as u suspect, not all of the assembled coins were worthy of certification n it is reasonable to speculate that many have been sold off in other markets with certain provisions...if long term u desire a complete inventory of contents im not sure that will ever be available, but as mentioned before those coins sold under the "Fairmont" labeled name should be retrievable...if u want a bit more data on the origination source(s) of this grouping of coins, PM me n i will discuss further....

[USAuPzlBxBob]

What I like about the resurrection of this thread is that it got me reading the DWN articles again, and they're really enjoyable.

The Fairmont Part II blog by Richard Radick showcases some of the most ingenious detective work.  A lot of hours were put into it; both research and actual write up.

While looking around, also came across Doug's gold collecting tips.  Warmed my heart.

A 20-minute interview from five years ago that seems as though it will "never get old."

[GoldFinger1969]

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/5/2024 at 2:58 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

What I like about the resurrection of this thread is that it got me reading the DWN articles again, and they're really enjoyable.

The Fairmont Part II blog by Richard Radick showcases some of the most ingenious detective work.  A lot of hours were put into it; both research and actual write up.

Yes, agreed.  You and Zad make some great points. 

I would think that one could create spreadsheets that automatically download the PCGS/NGC population data and keep running tabs and more importantly the monthly/quarterly changes that RR apparently tracked manually ?

Had to be time-consuming, but reading the article a 2nd time I focused on how he looked for the CHANGES in the population data and then made adjustments to determine if the increase was Fairmont-related or not.

Really facsinating.

Edited February 6 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Part III just came out yesterday :

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2024/2/5/fairmont-gold-pieces-part-iii-the-ungraded-fairmonts