Those interested in Eagles and Double Eagles might look at the Fairmont Collection auction 1 1

[RWB]

Stacks-Bowers is handling the sale in August.

The URL is: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/auctions/3-13PV75/auction-preview-the-fairmont-collection-rhone-set-featured-in-the-upcoming-august-2023-auction?limit=36&coin_finish=1-11DJZ

In my opinion (others will disagree) almost all of the coins are overgraded. Here's an example that is supposed top be "MS-65." You can decide if a common date Eagle of that grade should have deep cuts and bumps in prominent visual areas -- or, in fact, anywhere. [Lot Description - 1926 Indian Eagle. MS-65 (PCGS). No lot number assigned at present.]

Edited June 25 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

Henri and Zadok have talked about the Fairmont Coins for a while here, but good to have their own thread. 

Do we have a tally to date on what has been sold/offered ?

[VKurtB]

A prime example proving that gold is just graded differently. Is that over grading? I don’t know. But gold is typically being given free passes, and has for quite a few years now. Maybe because each coin had to swim back across the Atlantic to get back here. LOL!

[zadok]

On 6/25/2023 at 8:38 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Henri and Zadok have talked about the Fairmont Coins for a while here, but good to have their own thread. 

Do we have a tally to date on what has been sold/offered ?

...not really, but do we really need a tally? prob not for the average collector...im fairly certain that SB either have or at some point in the future will have a full inventory but will they or even should they make that public? not really, n if someone wants to write/publish a book on it, why not it be done in-house?...if anyone is interested in creating a tally of what has been sold so far thru auction its just a matter of consolidating all of the SB Fairmont auctions n keep a running tally, this will not however provide any/all of the coins sold privately...sure the inventory of this vast accumulation of gold coins can provide some insights into current availability of many dates n aggregate grades, thereby confirming either scarcity or exposing non-scarcity, sort of important to know before making substantial investments on certain dates...one of the most interesting findings, at least to me, is the ability to determine the diff coloration of the gold from the diff mints, interesting but not something to write a book on...dispersal of the coins in "dribs n drabs" as u call it was a business/market decision n i believe an astute one...in ur area of interest, DE, most of the previous thoughts on rarity have been pretty much confirmed...if u personally r interested in obtaining examples not thru the auctions PM me n ill give u a contact number to do so....

[zadok]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:55 AM, VKurtB said:

A prime example proving that gold is just graded differently. Is that over grading? I don’t know. But gold is typically being given free passes, and has for quite a few years now. Maybe because each coin had to swim back across the Atlantic to get back here. LOL!

...i believe u have a valid observational point, early copper is graded diff than new, gold is also graded diff than silver...but shouldnt it be that way?...there r many variables in grading especially so in unc coins before they r entered into circulation, it is not an empirical determination nor should it be...in fact i personally do not believe that "grading" is required at all, but thats just my take on it, worth nothing....

[VKurtB]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:41 AM, zadok said:

...i believe u have a valid observational point, early copper is graded diff than new, gold is also graded diff than silver...but shouldnt it be that way?...there r many variables in grading especially so in unc coins before they r entered into circulation, it is not an empirical determination nor should it be...in fact i personally do not believe that "grading" is required at all, but thats just my take on it, worth nothing....

Good point. 

[Zebo]

On 6/25/2023 at 3:43 PM, RWB said:

Here's an example that is supposed top be "MS-65."

Compare with the below, same grade? Higher grade? Lower grade?

 

 

Edited October 20 by Zebo

[Henri Charriere]

I would like to suggest, without further elaboration, that this is a trick interrogatory.

[VKurtB]

On 6/26/2023 at 9:14 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I would like to suggest, without further elaboration, that this is a trick interrogatory.

Ever notice that the Indian on these $10 coins has "Ricky Nelson mouth"? Hey Dave, let's go play headdresses with Wally.

[Coinbuf]

Fairmont, the collection that keeps on giving, and giving, and giving.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/26/2023 at 11:41 AM, zadok said:

...i believe u have a valid observational point, early copper is graded diff than new, gold is also graded diff than silver...but shouldnt it be that way?...there r many variables in grading especially so in unc coins before they r entered into circulation, it is not an empirical determination nor should it be...in fact i personally do not believe that "grading" is required at all, but thats just my take on it, worth nothing....

The size of the coin...the strike (elevated details or not)...the hardness of the metal.

I believe CAC takes into account those variable insofar as you won't find as many bagmarks on smaller, harder metal coins as you will on a larger, softer gold coin.  I guess silver is between gold and nickel in hardness ? 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:14 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I would like to suggest, without further elaboration, that this is a trick interrogatory.

Is that anything like trick photography ? 

Edited June 28 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 6/28/2023 at 12:33 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The size of the coin...the strike (elevated details or not)...the hardness of the metal.

I believe CAC takes into account those variable insofar as you won't find as many bagmarks on smaller, harder metal coins as you will on a larger, softer gold coin.  I guess silver is between gold and nickel in hardness ? 

...all of what u mention enters into evaluating the eye appeal n appearance of a coin...obviously a large gold coin with high relief design will incur more marks in the post minting process n handling n transporting of the coin before entering circulation than a smaller harder alloy coin with low relief design will in the post minting process...after all, grading is just a quantifying/qualifying scheme to tell us what our eyes already tell us n a scheme that is not truly needed to collect coins...the marketization/financialization of the hobby needs the grading scheme not the collector...back to grading, its not realistic to grade all coins with the exact same criteria...probably the grading with the biggest differential is in the disparity between early copper n modern copper, but again there r varying factors i.e. planchet quality/preparation, minting process/equipment, handling etc etc...n then design elements come into play in grading, larger coins especially those with big open fields n high relief central designs obviously show even minor contact marks more prevalently than those coins with smaller field to design ratios...there r some commemorative half dollars with such congested designs that it would be almost impossible to grade empirically...having said all this, one could propose that every coin design should have its own grading criteria, which would be overwhelming to the hobby....

Edited June 28 by zadok
spelling

[VKurtB]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:13 AM, zadok said:

...all of what u mention enters into evaluating the eye appeal n appearance of a coin...obviously a large gold coin with high relief design will incur more marks in the post minting process n handling n transporting of the coin before entering circulation than a smaller harder alloy coin with low relief design will in the post minting process...after all, grading is just a quantifying/qualifying scheme to tell us what our eyes already tell us n a scheme that is not truly needed to collect coins...the marketization/financialization of the hobby needs the grading scheme not the collector...back to grading, its not realistic to grade all coins with the exact same criteria...probably the grading with the biggest differential is in the disparity between early copper n modern copper, but again there r varying factors i.e. planchet quality/preparation, minting process/equipment, handling etc etc...n then design elements come into play in grading, larger coins especially those with big open fields n high relief central designs obviously show even minor contact marks more prevalently than those coins with smaller field to design ratios...there r some commemorative half dollars with such congested designs that it would be almost impossible to grade empirically...having said all this, one could propose that every coin design should have its own grading criteria, which would be overwhelming to the hobby....

Just wait for the circulating Jovita Idar quarters in a few weeks. Talk about wide open fields!!! Yes, the Innovation dollars and the Boys Town commem dollars had wide open fields, but they didn't/don't suffer the ravages of circulation.

[RWB]

Research by the Royal Mint in the latter 19th century revealed that the initial surface of British sovereigns was actually harder than of silver. Only after slight wear did gold coin alloy test a little softer than silver.

There is no rationale for "grading" silver or gold coins differently. Pure copper is softer, but not by a lot.

Edited June 28 by RWB

[zadok]

...no clue what criteria the royal mint may or may not have used in any century...while the hardness of gold n silver is virtually interchangeable their malleability is not, gold's malleability is much higher than that of silver n therefore more susceptible to dents, bagmarks, teeth marks, footnote abuse n meteorite strikes than silver....

[Henri Charriere]

I am frankly surprised not a single experienced collector has weighed in without so much as a query as to the availability for viewing of the other 50% of the coin.

[VKurtB]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:36 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I am frankly surprised not a single experienced collector has weighed in without so much as a query as to the availability for viewing of the other 50% of the coin.

I’ve seen it before.