Do You Know Why You Collect What You Collect? 1 1

[World Colonial]

On 6/21/2023 at 3:43 PM, Henri Charriere said:

To the above, you could probably safely add France, and any other country that has adopted its own grading system.

As you are aware, the grade FDC covers the entire range of Mint State coins from 65-70.

The TPG populations do not support that France has an "above average" preference for TPG.  The counts aren't that high and no reason to believe much of it over at least the last two centuries is actually scarce.

[zadok]

On 6/21/2023 at 10:40 AM, VKurtB said:

Saints are an itty bitty niche series, nothing more. It’s not mainstream at all. Oh, and Morgans are a cult. You want to know what’s mainstream? Put down the pop reports, turn off the screen, and go get in an airplane and look around. There are at least two students here at Summer Seminar who are permanently wheelchair bound. They made it worth their time and literal pain to be here to learn IN PERSON from the best people in these fields.

...its called commitment n dedication....i agree with u on the niche series n also on the morgans...mainstream sort of rotates around, mercuries, buffaloes, franklins, barbers etc...some movement back into the earlier series by the more advanced collectors n into the early gold for the more affluent, n of course the large cent n half cent collectors by varieties...i assume prob more lincoln collectors than anything else but never researched that....

[zadok]

On 6/21/2023 at 1:00 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Not at all....but aside from my own knowledge on this type, it's a classic coin...bullion at times....and widely-collected by non-coin collectors.  That's why I included it.

If lots of coins (Saints or whatever) today are commons then depending on the FMV they are probably well-preserved and worth grading.  I'm not sure if AU common Saints are worth grading if they are suddenly found and available.  But I haven't seen any news articles -- and maybe talking to dealers would be a better indicator -- of increased bullion coins for DEs.

...im not sure what u consider "classic" coins?...nor why u believe saints r classic in any respect other than they r large in size?...they certainly dont fit into any definition of what i would consider as a  US classic coin....

[VKurtB]

On 6/21/2023 at 1:35 PM, World Colonial said:

My personal inference is that much of the apparent demand for slabbing of world coinage elsewhere is mostly actually from US collectors and where it isn't, driven by marketing to US based collectors. Yes, I know NGC and PCGS have submission centers outside the US.

Exceptions are China (probably due to the number of fakes) and South Africa (due to financially motivated buying).  I've seen more graded coins on Sixbid (but not that many proportionately) but don't know where the buyers are mostly located.

We spent an ENTIRE DAY (NGC’s instructors) on classic Latin America material including Caribbean Island counter strikes. I propose that you are not as “unicorny” as you once were. There is a VAST need at NGC for grading and authentication expertise for your area of concentration. I don’t have an explanation for that if you are out there basically alone. “The dudes are out there.”

[VKurtB]

On 6/21/2023 at 3:25 PM, zadok said:

other than they r large in size?

ZACKLY! There are over 200 of us here at COS. NOT ONCE have I heard St. Gaudens’ name even come up. And we mix A LOT at meals. 

[VKurtB]

On 6/21/2023 at 3:25 PM, zadok said:

...im not sure what u consider "classic" coins?...nor why u believe saints r classic in any respect other than they r large in size?...they certainly dont fit into any definition of what i would consider as a  US classic coin....

Lol. Here at this event, anything newer that 1860 or so is “modern junk”, except for the Morgan Investors’ group, and they’ve mostly investor/flippers, not numismatists. I’ve gotten to handle multiple six-figure coins this week, ALL RAW. Try THAT on a website. (Most of the heavy hitters are owned by the ANA.)

Edited June 21, 2023 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

On 6/21/2023 at 5:39 PM, VKurtB said:

We spent an ENTIRE DAY (NGC’s instructors) on classic Latin America material including Caribbean Island counter strikes. I propose that you are not as “unicorny” as you once were. There is a VAST need at NGC for grading and authentication expertise for your area of concentration. I don’t have an explanation for that if you are out there basically alone. “The dudes are out there.”

I agree.  Most of this coinage isn't in a TPG holder, even the better stuff though I can't say how much of it exists.  Most of it is low grade dreck, as evidenced by the plate coins in my references.  The survey data identified a large number of coins cumulatively, though individual dates are mostly low in number.  These coins are presumably owned by actual collectors, not dumped in someone's "change jar".

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/21/2023 at 5:45 PM, VKurtB said:

.... (Most of the heavy hitters are owned by the ANA.)

Pardon my impertinence, but from whom did most of the heavy hitters you allude to  -- most of which, by your account, are owned by the ANA -- obtain those raw, top-shelf, six-figure coins if not dealers, whom you pointedly stated elsewhere should not comprise any part of the association's top management?

Edited June 21, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Omit word.

[VKurtB]

On 6/21/2023 at 5:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Pardon my impertinence, but from whom did most of the heavy hitters you allude to  -- most of which, by your account, are owned by the ANA -- obtain those raw, top-shelf, six-figure coins if not dealers, whom you pointedly stated elsewhere should not comprise any part of the association's top management?

The ultra-valuable pieces (heavy hitters) were primarily willed to, or donated to, the ANA by their very well off former collector/owners. Dealers had NOTHING to do with it. Think about it. The ANA owns TWO of the FIVE 1913 Liberty Nickels that exist. Both donated; neither bought. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

I stand corrected.  

[VKurtB]

On 6/21/2023 at 6:14 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I stand corrected.  

Death makes donors of many of us. My material is fairly pedestrian for the most part, but it has at least one whole generation to build up its street cred. I judge far superior material to anything I own. Being a student of great coins is more important to me than the owning. 

[Walkerfan]

On 6/19/2023 at 11:15 PM, VKurtB said:

I have long believed that Registry Set collectors are a particularly unique “breed of cat” that is likely one of the eight psychological profiles to be covered in Mr. Swanger’s August talk in Pittsburgh. I recognize that Registry collectors are well represented on this website. Duh, right? But please believe me, here at the ANA Summer Seminar, so far I have not heard even a single person refer to a Registry or any competition based on graded coins, it simply never comes up in this segment of the hobby. I strongly suspect that it might come up in one class -  “Collecting and Investing in Morgan Dollars: A Comprehensive Approach”. One of the instructors, John Baumgart, sat next to me on the shuttle from COS airport. Our approach to this hobby could not be more diametrically opposite. He could not imaging buying ANY coin he would not resell. I can scarcely imagine buying any coin I WOULD plan on reselling. The same coin in three different hands can be 1) inventory, 2) a temporary investment, or 3) a valued quasi-family-member. I’m a big ol’ 3. 

The Pittsburgh ANA coin Discussion sounds very interesting, to me, as I am quite fascinated with psychology.  Here is a view into this registry cat’s psyche:  

When I started my registry set; I knew that I would never be number one.  I never intended to be And I never wanted to be.  Not to say that it wouldn’t be nice but that was not my main goal.  So, does that mean that I did not ‘win’ the competition?  Absolutely not, as I was competing only with myself.  To me that was great.  To see how relevant and high quality of a set that I could build.  Then compare it on a worldwide level.  That made it super cool.  I did the best that I could and I am very proud.  It was fun, interesting and challenging to me to see how high I could go and how high I could score.  And it is 100% complete, which is an excellent feeling of accomplishment.  Funny thing for me is that, if I wanted to; I could continue on and upgrade more but that seems pointless to me, because I am satisfied with each specimen that I have selected for each and every slot.  It seems foolish to me to pay thousands and thousands of dollars more to improve on a coin or coins that I already love.  So, there is kind of a point of diminishing returns for me, when it comes to that.  To me—even though I am not number one; I still have achieved a high level and a high ranking and it is fun to show it off to the world, so they cannot only share my joy but maybe learn something from it, too.  I like to use my set as a teaching tool.  I enjoy sharing information and writing descriptions and taking pictures.  Finally, the registry serves as an inventory system for me.  It helps me keep track of everything.  

I also like the last thing that you said…that you were #3, in that your coins are valued quasi-family members and not inventory or temporary investments.  That is a very unique way of putting it! Not sure that I feel this way, exactly, but I will say this:  I worked too damn hard to put my set together and I enjoy it, tremendously, so it is not something that I am interested in just flipping or turning a quick profit on.  One of the number one rules that a dealer has is that he never falls in love with any of his coins.  Well, I’m here to tell you that it is too late for me. That is part of my joy…to own something that is irreplaceable and rare and beautiful.  Not to say that I will never sell, as I never say never, but I will say that it would take a lot for me to part with it.  You and I are truly pure and refined collectors.  We have a real passion for the game.  I intend to enjoy it as long as I can.  

Edited June 23, 2023 by Walkerfan

[Henri Charriere]

As I am no longer permitted to cross-examine witnesses on the Forum, I will instead make a bold assertion some may take exception with. I believe where set registrants are concerned, it takes one to know one. You may not have had the intention of being number one, and there are plenty of members who have no realistic expectation of ever achieving that status in a crowded field, but to echo an old movie title, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. For the few who calculatingly engage in "ascension by ambush," i.e., bank their acquisitions and suddenly deposit them in their Set Registry in one  continuous series of masterful strokes, capturing the trophy, assuming the throne, and in so doing pushing all others down a notch [as well as out of the Top Ten] there are the surprise defections, disenchantments (the reality of biting off more than one can chew sinking in) as well as attrition through retirements.

Two questions for Set Registrants (with the OP's indulgence): Are Set Registrants born, taking to water like hatchlings acquiescing to genetic instinct, or without a single coin in hand, does the thought simply occur to them, Hey, that looks appealing; I can do that?

My final hunch... it is my belief, having spent a good part of one's most productive years in putting together one giant jigsaw puzzle, coin by coin (whilst simultaneously working on others) that if one attains Top Ten rank status with tens of thousands of points, say, 31,997 -- irrespective of a public declaration indicating otherwise -- no Set Registrant running in a crowded field with spaces wide enough to drive a Hummer through would brook having an upstart cut him off with a margin of just three points.  No, he will come out of retirement, if necessary, and attend to his duty. One may very well attain the # 1 rank by default, but if one does it'll be a whole different ballgame.  A primitive instinct will take over to preserve that ranking at all costs. I, of course, do not speak from personal experience.  🤣  

[Walkerfan]

When I said that I had no intention of being #1---I meant in the Walker Complete Set (I am currently #7).  

In the Walker One Per Date Set and Early Set---I have won awards for being #1 Nine Times.  And YES, those were most certainly 'Niche' categories for me that I excelled in.    

I have since been dethroned but enjoyed my time at the top.  NGC has graciously given me icons that will forever be displayed, on my profile, which attest to that and are badges of honor for me.  

Also, my banners displayed in my signature line read 'Top Ranking Competitive Set', since I am STILL in the top Three of those two categories.  

Nice of our host to do this as a permanent recognition and to make it FUN for participants.  It is a nice little reward for their work and effort.  

And YES, if I was knocked out of a high ranking position, by just a small margin; I'd likely upgrade to reclaim my status, if it wasn't too cost prohibitive.  

Edited June 23, 2023 by Walkerfan

[zadok]

On 6/23/2023 at 4:20 PM, Walkerfan said:

When I said that I had no intention of being #1---I meant in the Walker Complete Set (I am currently #7).  

In the Walker One Per Date Set and Early Set---I have won awards for being #1 Nine Times.  And YES, those were most certainly 'Niche' categories for me that I excelled in.    

I have since been dethroned but enjoyed my time at the top.  NGC has graciously given me icons that will forever be displayed, on my profile, which attest to that and are badges of honor for me.  

Also, my banners displayed in my signature line read 'Top Ranking Competitive Set', since I am STILL in the top Three of those two categories.  

Nice of our host to do this as a permanent recognition and to make it FUN for participants.  It is a nice little reward for their work and effort.  

And YES, if I was knocked out of a high ranking position, by just a small margin; I'd likely upgrade to reclaim my status, if it wasn't too cost prohibitive.  

...ur insights n observations on ur registry set participation r...lets say insightful n thought provoking, possibly will give other collectors reason to consider entering registry sets...as u provided the sets r not for everyone but do make available a multitude of avenues to enjoy the hobby...mostly the sets just provide personal satisfaction but at times the competitive urge surfaces n the call to battle arises, thats the fun part for some...i agree the little banners n icons awarded by our host r feel good tokens n serve a personal purpose, i too have enjoyed the registry sets for several years n received such icons, an entire wall of them actually, satisfying to look at etc...i often build entire sets of coins that would achieve the number 1 ranking in many different areas but never enter them, its just not needed, i have a couple that i mite do so this year or maybe not depends on my mood come late november...sets that i feel actual passion for r the ones i consistently strive to upgrade others r just something to do to stay active...i do admire ur modesty in ur approach to ur sets however....

[Walkerfan]

Thank You @zadok I appreciate your kind sentiments.  Congrats on your achievements, as well.  Numismatics has been such a Godsend for me.  It has offered me hours and hours of learning, excitement and enjoyment.  It is an escape and I find it comforting.  It is also a very social hobby and I have made some great friendships.  You also have something to show for your work, when you’re done, unlike spending your resources on intangibles.  It is my hope that I can help and/or inspire future collectors by my experiences.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Walkerfan

[J P M]

On 6/23/2023 at 6:52 PM, Walkerfan said:

unlike spending your resources on intangibles.

Ya I hate to think of all the cool coins I could have picked up if I had stayed away from sex, drugs and rock + roll... Oh and raising 4 girls can put a hole in your pocket.

[Walkerfan]

On 6/23/2023 at 8:42 PM, J P M said:

Ya I hate to think of all the cool coins I could have picked up if I had stayed away from sex, drugs and rock + roll... Oh and raising 4 girls can put a hole in your pocket.

I’ve had many good times, too, my friend.  

Life is all about balance.  

[Just Bob]

I collect Mississippi tokens and other exonumia because they are a direct link to the history and culture of my home state. I enjoy researching the towns and businesses represented, and I like to visit the areas where now-extinct towns once were. It's fun to imagine what the town may have looked like in its heyday, and to see what, if anything, remains. It's also nice when there is a direct connection, such as finding a token from my hometown, or from where my parents were raised.

Additionally, I enjoy being able to own collectibles that are actually rare without having to pay an arm and a leg for them. Quite a few of the tokens I own are one of only a handful - sometimes only two or three - of pieces known to exist. I can get the feeling of exclusivity without the high cost.

The hunt is also a big part of why I enjoy tokens. Searching antique stores, flea markets, and coin dealer bargain bins can sometimes turn up interesting finds, and usually at prices that won't break the bank. Finally finding that last token to complete a set gives a feeling of accomplishment and completion.

I collect other US and world coins, but tokens are my main interest, and what I focus most of my energy on.

[VKurtB]

Best line I heard at Summer Seminar busting on the far south Gulf states: I drove into Mississippi one time and had to set my watch back 200 years.

[Reno Raines]

My interest in coin collecting began when I was sixteen years old. I was walking to work as I didn't have a car and I found something shiny on the railroad tracks. I picked it up and it was a five dollar gold coin. While I was at work the next day my then step mom stole it from my room and used it to buy a pack of cigarettes. Ever since then I just tip toe in and out of the hobby as I just don't have enough time to fully read everything about coins.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/2/2023 at 12:50 AM, Tony Follis said:

My interest in coin collecting began when I was sixteen years old. I was walking to work as I didn't have a car and I found something shiny on the railroad tracks. I picked it up and it was a five dollar gold coin. While I was at work the next day my then step mom stole it from my room and used it to buy a pack of cigarettes. Ever since then I just tip toe in and out of the hobby as I just don't have enough time to fully read everything about coins.

Welcome!

You don't need time.  All you need is a copy of the "Red Book," the basic tool for every collector.  A $5.00 gold piece lying on a track bed is very unusual. If it is not an imposition, I would encourage you to obtain that most basic of coin collecting reference books and see if you can recognize the coin you found. It can't be but a few pages and moments of your time. I have never heard of a story remotely like yours. You're in the right place; everyone has to start somewhere!

[Moxie15]

Well to answer your question... Yes , I know why I collect what I do and when it comes right down to it I owe you or any one else no explanation. Okay, now that the is out of my system. I started collecting wheat cents from circulation when I was nine in 1971. Without going into to details that may get me foaming at the mouth It took me years to get my mother's grubby fingers and idiotic influences out of my collection and since that day I have collected what I wanted when and how I wanted.

My collection has kept me sane, driven my mad, cost me every cent I could muster, kept me from suicide no less than twice, and has brought me immense joy.

I have several collecting focuses and I work on whatever one I can afford and find joy in.  I actually hate finishing a series or set. I have not seriously collected for about 7 years due to life situations, but one of my favorite collections for the last 10 years or so is my World War II collection. I have identified over 200 countries or territories that were directly or indirectly involved in the war. I am attempting to collect 4 contemporary coins of each country that minted coins during or just before the war, and a single example of coinage from each that did not mint coins in the war years. The research and hunting brings me much joy.

That is why I collect.

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/2/2023 at 8:50 PM, Moxie15 said:

Well to answer your question... Yes , I know why I collect what I do and when it comes right down to it I owe you or any one else no explanation.....

That is why I collect.

Well!  Having put up with me and the likes of my various alter-egos, for 3-1/2 years, I can certainly appreciate at least part of the source of your discontent.  Not to get your hopes up, relying solely on instinct, I have a feeling something wonderful will happen for you before the year is out. Oh, and do have a pleasant Fourth!

[Moxie15]

On 7/2/2023 at 9:11 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Well!  Having put up with me and the likes of my various alter-egos, for 3-1/2 years, I can certainly appreciate at least part of the source of your discontent.  Not to get your hopes up, relying solely on instinct, I have a feeling something wonderful will happen for you before the year is out. Oh, and do have a pleasant Fourth!

I hope you are right as the last couple months have been one disaster after another up to watching my cattle dog get run over this morning. I am rather worn out and beat down.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/8/2023 at 6:51 PM, Moxie15 said:

I hope you are right as the last couple months have been one disaster after another up to watching my cattle dog get run over this morning. I am rather worn out and beat down.

It's been said, there will always be suffering, trial, temptations, pain and situatuons we won't be able to handle alone.... but - - - will never give you more than you can handle.*  Members have experienced incalculable losses due to hurricanes, "atmospheric rivers," wildfires, extreme temperatures, fires, thefts, even unexpected deaths of loved ones... you name it.  I have faith in you.

* Reference and quotation marks removed as providing same would be a Violation of the Chat Board Guidelines.  

[Reno Raines]

Henri Charriere, I found a picture of the coin I found here on the price guide. It was a five dollar Indian Head gold coin but I can't remember what year the coin was. It was just one of those once in a lifetime things I guess.

[Fenntucky Mike]

Thought this was an interesting article, salesmanship aside.

https://www.ha.com/intelligent-collector/why-do-we-collect-things.s?article=collect

[Henri Charriere]

Now that I have received an email from a titled gentleman affiliated with MA-SHOPS, promising enthusiastically (but totally unrealistically, to Goldfinger's amusement) that he will scour all Gold Rooster haunts to the ends of the Earth for the mythical Holy Grail, an MS-70 -- (I specifically requested an MS-67) -- which ups the ante for me, I should like to add that, tho I be officially retired, this is one "Rising Star" who secretly vowed he shall not be dethroned from his # 1 ranking elsewhere. All that time, effort and expense building a set registry even the normally sedate zadok departing from tradition, carved out a special discreet accolade for me? Perish the thought!  🤣

[World Colonial]

Never really answered the question of this topic.  Here are some reasons why I collect what I do versus something else:

One: When I resumed collecting in 1998, I declined to collect US coinage due to the relative price level.  The price level was much lower but so was my budget.  My financial resources have increased as my work career progressed but not necessarily faster than the price level for potential interests in US coinage.

Two: Too many coins are overpriced based upon any sensible evaluation of the collectible merits.  US coins are the most overpriced but not the only ones.

Three: With the internet, the vast majority of coins are too easy to buy and there is no challenge to it.  No, collecting by TPG label, CAC stickers, US invented specializations, or some other narrow criteria doesn't change it for me.

Four: My interest in a particular coin or series increases or decreases inversely to the price level, as I don't buy coins for "investment".  I dumped most of my South Africa collection for this reason (after prices rose substantially) and wished I sold most of what remains.

Five: I'm not interested in collecting "downward" with my primary collecting interest.  This is subjective but it's definitely tangible.  This varies by collector, but it is evident collectors think in this context generally.

Six: I don't actively buy for my "side" collections, much less add a new one.  I'll probably never complete my primary interest and regular buying for secondary interests or impulse purchases reduces my budget for my pillar collection.

Seven: I'm not interested in losing money on coins I don't like enough.  There are coins I used to own (since sold) which aren't very marketable.