Kentucky Gold Hoard 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/gold-coin-hoard-totaling-800-pieces-found-in-kentucky

Looks like the $20 Liberty Head DEs are equal to or better than what we have to date.   Lots of gold dollars found.

[Zebo]

What a find. Have to look into this further. A bit hesitant about Govmint.com though.

[RWB]

No "meat" to the article. That might imply more promotion than real numismatic value.

[VKurtB]

On 6/12/2023 at 10:39 AM, RWB said:

No "meat" to the article. That might imply more promotion than real numismatic value.

Promotion? In numismatics? Say it ain’t so! The coins will be sought after. That is certain. This will be to Jeff Garrett what the Saddle Ridge hoard was to Don Kagin. By making promotional news stories now, the hope is to raise the average selling price by having special labels and provenance. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/12/2023 at 2:33 PM, VKurtB said:

Promotion? In numismatics? Say it ain’t so! The coins will be sought after. That is certain. This will be to Jeff Garrett what the Saddle Ridge hoard was to Don Kagin. By making promotional news stories now, the hope is to raise the average selling price by having special labels and provenance. 

I think it will be tough to top the SSCA hoard which had a REAL story behind it and a big part of American history.

The Saddle Ridge Hoard was definitely overhyped, I don't know how the final selling prices turned out.  I believe Amazon did some of the sales ?  But because the finders want anonymity and don't want hundreds of people trespassing over their land looking for more, there are holes in the story that cut the narrative in a way that the SSCA doesn't suffer from.  The Kentucky Hoard will suffer from the same thin storyline.

So I think this will purely be a new supply of gold coins, apparantly only a few dozen LH DEs and over 700 gold dollars.  The hype and marketing ability looks minimal unless there's a key date/coin that somebody really wants (note that the 1863 Double Eagle could be the finest now available).

You wonder if key facts have been changed to either cover the actual find or to pass of non-hoard coins as hoard coins.  If the farmland was actively farmed, you wonder how the coins (I believe found at or near the surface) weren't found earlier.

Edited June 12, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 6/12/2023 at 1:40 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think it will be tough to top the SSCA hoard which had a REAL story behind it and a big part of American history.

The Saddle Ridge Hoard was definitely overhyped, I don't know how the final selling prices turned out.  I believe Amazon did some of the sales ?  But because the finders want anonymity and don't want hundreds of people trespassing over their land looking for more, there are holes in the story that cut the narrative in a way that the SSCA doesn't suffer from.  The Kentucky Hoard will suffer from the same thin storyline.

So I think this will purely be a new supply of gold coins, apparantly only a few dozen LH DEs and over 700 gold dollars.  The hype and marketing ability looks minimal unless there's a key date/coin that somebody really wants (note that the 1863 Double Eagle could be the finest now available).

You wonder if key facts have been changed to either cover the actual find or to pass of non-hoard coins as hoard coins.  If the farmland was actively farmed, you wonder how the coins (I believe found at or near the surface) weren't found earlier.

The Saddle Ridge hoard was carefully conserved and sorted. Only the lesser material was given to Amazon to sell. The rest of the material was carefully parceled out slowly so as to not destroy the market for many of the dates and mintmarks. There were MANY pieces in the Saddle Ridge hoard that are STILL the finest known of their denominations, dates, and mintmarks. Diminish the importance of the Saddle Ridge hoard at your peril. It was and is "epic".

The collection included:

1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million

1866-S $20 Double Eagle/with motto PCGS MS62+ (finest known)

1877-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied finest known)

1888-S $20 Double Eagle (four) PCGS MS64 (tied for finest known)

1889-S $20 Double Eagle (two) graded PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known)

1894-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known)

Edited June 12, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/12/2023 at 6:45 PM, VKurtB said:

The Saddle Ridge hoard was carefully conserved and sorted. Only the lesser material was given to Amazon to sell. The rest of the material was carefully parceled out slowly so as to not destroy the market for many of the dates and mintmarks. There were MANY pieces in the Saddle Ridge hoard that are STILL the finest known of their denominations, dates, and mintmarks. Diminish the importance of the Saddle Ridge hoard at your peril. It was and is "epic".

The collection included:

1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million

1866-S $20 Double Eagle/with motto PCGS MS62+ (finest known)

1877-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied finest known)

1888-S $20 Double Eagle (four) PCGS MS64 (tied for finest known)

1889-S $20 Double Eagle (two) graded PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known)

1894-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known)

I think we're referring to different markets.  I agree with you, Kurt, that the SRH had some great coins, including the DEs you listed above.

I was talking about making an impact on the general public.  There the SSCA reigns supreme with many new people brought into coin collecting and/or making 1-time purchases.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/12/2023 at 6:45 PM, VKurtB said:

1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million

As I recall, they asked that price but it didn't sell.  With Liberty Head DEs hot and being dragged upward by CC coins, maybe it's sold for that or more in the last few years.

[VKurtB]

On 6/12/2023 at 6:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I was talking about making an impact on the general public.

Hmm, interesting. I'm going back 10 years, but to me, Saddle Ridge was THE MOST NEWSWORTHY U.S. coin hoard of all time. I think it might still be. I never consider opinions of the "general public", aka "marketing hype targets".

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:37 AM, VKurtB said:

Hmm, interesting. I'm going back 10 years, but to me, Saddle Ridge was THE MOST NEWSWORTHY U.S. coin hoard of all time. I think it might still be. I never consider opinions of the "general public", aka "marketing hype targets".

I think the overall buying interest and news surrounding the 1857 SSCA dwarfs SRH by alot.  Documentaries, news stories, the public wanting various coins or mementos, etc.   The coins from the SRH pretty much went to top-notch collectors though the prices on some of the commons have come down I believe in recent years.

The SRH founders have cloaked most of the details in secrecy.  Nothing was hidden with the SSCA find.  I remember watching a few documentaries on cable 22+ years ago.

I think the Saddle Ridge Hoard might be more numismatically important to the collector community.  But in terms of depth and exposure, I think SSCA (before the internet and social media really took off) beats it.

Edited June 13, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:55 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think the overall buying interest and news surrounding the 1857 SSCA dwarfs SRH by alot.  Documentaries, news stories, the public wanting various coins or mementos, etc.   The coins from the SRH pretty much went to top-notch collectors though the prices on some of the commons have come down I believe in recent years.

The SRH founders have cloaked most of the details in secrecy.  Nothing was hidden with the SSCA find.  I remember watching a few documentaries on cable 22+ years ago.

I think the Saddle Ridge Hoard might be more numismatically important to the collector community.  But in terms of depth and exposure, I think SSCA (before the internet and social media really took off) beats it.

Maybe I’m biased because I hate oceans and seashores. Could be. I watch those cable TV programs about offshore treasure hunters and frankly, I see lunatics.  I get second degree sunburn just looking at brochures from seaside resorts. I’m going to Colorado Springs next week WITHOUT my wife, and then in July, she shleps to Siesta Key without me. 
 

Then, a week in Pittsburgh and 18 days in Western Europe together, both trips dripping with numismatics. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by VKurtB

[Sandon]

    The only coin shown in the Coin World online article is an 1863 double eagle in an NGC holder described as "EXCAVATION RECOVERY--UNC". The coin has areas of dark discoloration or encrustation and heavy scratches. It is severely impaired.  The fact that the coins are to be sold by a mass marketer who sells via television and print ads to the general public rather than by Garrett's firm or other major coin dealers indicates that most or all of the coins are similarly impaired. Many of the coins ordinarily wouldn't be worth much more than bullion value but will obviously be hyped to sell for multiples of that. The find is interesting as it appears that the coins were likely buried during the Civil War era.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/13/2023 at 10:55 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

.... The SRH founders have cloaked most of the details in secrecy.  Nothing was hidden with the SSCA find....

Actually, there was. There must be something awfully important about the "missing" 500 coins that would prompt a research scientist to feel 6, going on 7 years, sitting in a detention facility is definitely worth his while.  After all, tons of coins were recovered.

Side note:  To the present owner of the largest silver bar recovered from the shipwreck, dubbed "Excalibur," if Lady Luck allows me to realize my life-long dream, philanthropy, I will be well-positioned to make you an offer for the artifact you can't refuse.  🤣

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/13/2023 at 2:38 PM, Sandon said:

Many of the coins ordinarily wouldn't be worth much more than bullion value but will obviously be hyped to sell for multiples of that. The find is interesting as it appears that the coins were likely buried during the Civil War era.

I saw an AU-58+ (!!) the other day in the Heritage or GC archives (can't remember which)....total cost including BP was like $2,600.  Decent premium but not outrageous, IMO.  Not like the premiums on SSCA back in 2000-03.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/13/2023 at 3:00 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Actually, there was. There must be something awfully important about the "missing" 500 coins that would prompt a research scientist to feel 6, going on 7 years, sitting in a detention facility is definitely worth his while.  After all, tons of coins were recovered.

I meant nothing being hidden about the location of the wreck...the coins....the story...etc.  I'm not talking about thievery after the recovery. 

[RWB]

On 6/13/2023 at 3:00 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Actually, there was. There must be something awfully important about the "missing" 500 coins that would prompt a research scientist to feel 6, going on 7 years, sitting in a detention facility is definitely worth his while.  After all, tons of coins were recovered.

People do odd things to bolster their self-importance. They refuse to disclose location of stolen property, hide Classified documents, lie about anything and everything, keep a secret treasure map found at a Truck Stop grocery, etc., sit in jail for years.

[Nouzillet]

The coins that Thompson stole were not struck during the CA Gold Rush

I think they are re struck Kellogg & Co Round $50 gold pieces If my memory serves me correctly they were made by slicing off the face plates of some of the gold bars recovered from the wreck. The face plates sell at auction for good prices

They show the Assaying firm’s name  ie Kellogg & Humbert , the number , the weight, the gold Fineness and the $ value of the bar

The coins in Thompson’s stolen hoard were made from the melted gold obtained from these bars

Purist’s would say they should not have melted the bars in the first place (that’s left to debate)

I think the set of dies for the coins were the original ones from Kellogg & Co 1855

Thompson saw his grossly overvalued billion dollar wreck evaporate and his payout with it

Lawyers must have gobbled up a significant amount of cash

Perhaps he feels that he is entitled to something 

Yes the investors had a right to the gold he stole

He picked the wrong judge to lie to

Just my opinion of course

I don’t think there is any comparison between the SSCA recovery and Saddle Ridge historic wise 

To me the SSCA recoveries win by a mile

I guess I am prejudice 

I will say that David M did a first class job of restoring the SR Hoard gold coins that were not already harshly cleaned by the finder

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/13/2023 at 7:38 PM, Nouzillet said:

Thompson saw his grossly overvalued billion dollar wreck evaporate and his payout with it

The coins sold for very rich premiums to their gold content....so I'm surprised the hoard could have been "overvalued" and he felt the need to steal.

Seems more likely a dispute where he took something he felt he was entitled to.  I just can't believe once it went to court he elected to rot in jail.  Maybe he doesn't have all his marbles.

Edited June 14, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[leeg]

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11795/kentucky-hoard-civil-war-coins/