EagleRJO Posted May 18, 2023 Share Posted May 18, 2023 (edited) I have been looking for a few missing trade dollars, including the 1875-S T$. Seems like they are either way overpriced, over-graded, cleaned, damaged or a counterfeit. I saw anther one on eBay (yea, I know) that seemed to check a couple of those boxes. First the grade isn't AU as listed, it looks like VF+ or XF. The color is a little off with a bunch of hairlines, so likely cleaned, and there is some damage on the reverse including some scratches and a hit to the eagle's left. Even if I could live with that something is rubbing me the wrong way with this coin. Like on the reverse the eagles head seems different comparing it to a PCGS AU55, on the right of attached comparison pic. Seems to have different details and at a different angle. Am I seeing things having looked at so many of these, or is the eagles head different? Edited May 19, 2023 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted May 18, 2023 Share Posted May 18, 2023 I see nothing in the photos that indicates to me that this coin is counterfeit, although I can't be sure that it is genuine either. The coin has clearly been given a harsh abrasive cleaning, as indicated by the extensive hairlining that goes mostly in the same direction on each side of the coin and the ugly gray color. (Compare this with the patches of hairlines on the 1880-CC Morgan dollar you recently posted, which could have occurred in circulation.) In addition to obverse chop marks, this trade dollar has serious scratches and damage on the reverse. Even if genuine, it's an undesirable coin. EagleRJO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted May 18, 2023 Share Posted May 18, 2023 The coin looks real but the reverse scratch and dent left of eagle are killing it. Also the big gash after Dollar. If it is $30 and you just want to fill a hole then get it. I bet they want more EagleRJO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted May 18, 2023 Share Posted May 18, 2023 Mutilation kills it, although appears to be genuine. EagleRJO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted May 18, 2023 Author Share Posted May 18, 2023 (edited) I already passed on this one, but it just looked off like the eagle's head. I may just be seeing things that aren't there, like the slope of the beak and the mouth looks different. It might be I just got the rotation of the overlay wrong giving it a different appearance. Thanks for the feedback Edited May 18, 2023 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted May 18, 2023 Author Share Posted May 18, 2023 On 5/18/2023 at 4:58 PM, RWB said: Mutilation kills it, although appears to be genuine. Mutilation as in chop marks? There are a number of coins which were marked, but I think Trade Dollars shipped directly from the mint to the Orient are the only ones which should get a pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted May 18, 2023 Share Posted May 18, 2023 Trade dollars were issued to the company that ordered them and provided the bullion. They were supposed to be used only in Asian trade but there was no tracking after the coins left the mints. (I feel the same rules apply to all. If that means there are no uncirculated specimens of a specific denomination/date/mint - so be it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted May 19, 2023 Author Share Posted May 19, 2023 (edited) I have been collecting trade dollars for a while, and finding uncirculated ones is not common. When you do find them they are pricey, and higher grade ones are very expensive, due to the limited numbers. They are readily available in pretty worn condition, but I have been sticking to looking for XF grades, with an occasional AU available. Most of the trade dollars like the 1875-S were circulated amd have chop marks from being sent directly to the Orient. The ones I am missing have been a problem finding even in XF grade at a reasonable price, are counterfeits, or are impaired like this one which I really don't want in my collection. So I might also start looking at some in a VF grade. Edited May 19, 2023 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted May 19, 2023 Share Posted May 19, 2023 I have an 1875-S in MS and looking at the reverse, the coin you presented has the same die crack traveling across and through AMERICA. I am not sure whether a scanned coin would be able to pick up the detail in that die crack, so I am willing to say the coin in question is legit. You might just be seeing the eagle's head as "different" due to the amount of wear on it. I should have pics of my MS to put here so you can compare. EagleRJO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted May 19, 2023 Author Share Posted May 19, 2023 (edited) On 5/18/2023 at 11:52 PM, powermad5000 said: I have an 1875-S in MS and looking at the reverse, the coin you presented has the same die crack traveling across and through AMERICA ... I am not sure whether a scanned coin would be able to pick up the detail in that die crack, so I am willing to say the coin in question is legit. Both a scanned coin or a die transfer will lose some detail, particularly with die markers like the crack. But the die crack at "America" on both coins is an exact match. So either they are both legit or both counterfeits from the same die. It looks like they are both legit as my overlay to check the coin was rotated slightly on the reverse. It's sometimes hard to get a solid reference point on those T$ reverses to create the overlay. Also, attached is an MS63 certified by PCG$ as authentic with exactly the same die crack. Edited May 19, 2023 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 On 5/19/2023 at 5:14 AM, EagleRJO said: either they are both legit or both counterfeits from the same die. The photos I provided were from when I bought the coin raw and it was still in a flip. I sent it in to NGC and it graded MS 62. Following your commentary then, both coins are legit. EagleRJO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 On 5/18/2023 at 6:49 PM, RWB said: Trade dollars were issued to the company that ordered them and provided the bullion. They were supposed to be used only in Asian trade but there was no tracking after the coins left the mints. (I feel the same rules apply to all. If that means there are no uncirculated specimens of a specific denomination/date/mint - so be it.) This completely out-of-touch and highly opinionated view has been brought to you by, well... you KNOW who. His name is on it, as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
