Questionable Trade Dollar 1 1

[EagleRJO]

Came across this chopped 1874-S Trade Dollar, but the details seem a little mushy (poor pics?) even though they seem to generally match, including inscriptions as well as the date.  Also the fields appear a little grainy.  Pics are not the best, but other than that I don't see any significant issues or wear even at high points, like Liberty's knees or the eagles wing tips, without any apparent luster so likely an AU grade if legit.

Thoughts?

Edited May 15, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

    I think that this piece is likely counterfeit. As you noted, the surfaces have a suspiciously grainy finish with weak or "mushy" details. The stars and many other design features appear to be too small.  The numerals in the date look too narrow.  (The mint marks on this issue come in small, medium, and large sizes per the Bowers Silver Dollars and Trade Dollars of the United States encyclopedia (1993), so the smaller mint mark than on the PCGS authenticated piece isn't determinative.)

[EagleRJO]

The 1874-S has a notoriously weak strike, so I wasn't sure if the "mushy" appearance may be the result of a significantly weak strike on that coin, possibly combined with somewhat blurry pics.

[Sandon]

   A weakly struck coin is weakest on the highest points. This piece seems well-struck everywhere--assuming that it was struck and not cast--but the detail just doesn't appear to match that of a genuine Trade dollar.

[RWB]

Hardly matters -- it's mutilated/damaged anyway.

[EagleRJO]

On 5/13/2023 at 10:50 PM, RWB said:

Hardly matters -- it's mutilated/damaged anyway.

I specifically look for trade dollars that have chop marks, but not overdone as I think it gives them character and history, which is a variety and not damage per PCGS.

https://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Now-Designates-Chop-Marked-Trade-Dollars

I think it's a small S mark, which is unusual for a chop marked T$ as the vast majority are normal S marks which were shipped directly to Asia for use in trade. The small S marks were not shipped, which was kind of a flag to look closely.

[powermad5000]

Based upon the denticles, and more blaringly the size of the wording on the reverse versus the size of the letters on a legit coin is telling me it is fake. Regardless of the size of the mintmark, the lettering on the dies was all the same regardless of which mint struck the coin.

It also has an unnatural "sheen" to it.

Edited May 14, 2023 by powermad5000
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[J P M]

It looks like it was sand or bead blasted to me the effect is everywhere.

[Just Bob]

Fake

[zadok]

On 5/14/2023 at 9:45 AM, Just Bob said:

Fake

...if fake, wouldnt that mean the chop marks have to be fake also?...r not the chop marks meant to mean that the coin has the correct percentage of silver?....

[Just Bob]

On 5/14/2023 at 8:58 AM, zadok said:

...if fake, wouldnt that mean the chop marks have to be fake also?...r not the chop marks meant to mean that the coin has the correct percentage of silver?....

Colin Gulberg is the author of "Chopmarked Coins - a History" (iAssure Group JEAN Publications 2014)

Copy/paste from a Numismatic News article dated  5/26/2016:

Collectors should be aware there are counterfeit chopmarked Trade dollars, said Gullberg.

“Now huge numbers of fakes are coming out of China and faked chops are just another way to fool buyers into thinking the coin is genuine,” he said. “After all, a chopped Trade dollar usually sells at a discount then no one would deliberately try to reduce the selling price, right?”

 

[Sandon]

On 5/14/2023 at 9:58 AM, zadok said:

.if fake, wouldn't that mean the chop marks have to be fake also?.

  Counterfeiters often make their fakes of older coins look worn or damaged to make them look old and, therefore, likely genuine.  Another example would be the early half cents and large cents that have fooled the grading services, which fakes were mostly made with corrosion or surface damage. 

[RWB]

On 5/14/2023 at 12:24 AM, EagleRJO said:

I specifically look for trade dollars that have chop marks, but not overdone as I think it gives them character and history, which is a variety and not damage per PCGS.

https://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Now-Designates-Chop-Marked-Trade-Dollars

I think it's a small S mark, which is unusual for a chop marked T$ as the vast majority are normal S marks which were shipped directly to Asia for use in trade. The small S marks were not shipped, which was kind of a flag to look closely.

I completely disagree with PCGS - if the same were on any other coin it would be damage. Why make unnecessary exceptions? There might be 20 people in the US who can read the chops and none who actually understand them. (However Chinese TV  did an extensive series on 17-early 20th century banking and money exchange.)

[EagleRJO]

I am going to pass on this one.  Thanks for everyone's feedback.

On 5/14/2023 at 11:40 AM, RWB said:

Why make unnecessary exceptions?

Nearly all of the 1874-S T$, as well as some other T$ issued, were shipped to the Orient after being struck for use in commerce, and then were summarily chop marked by "shroffs" (Chinese authenticators) working for bankers and merchants after verifying a coin was legit.  That is a very unique situation which in my mind deserves special consideration.  I cant think of another coin where anything remotely similar occurred.

Edited May 15, 2023 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 5/14/2023 at 9:58 AM, zadok said:

...if fake, wouldnt that mean the chop marks have to be fake also?...r not the chop marks meant to mean that the coin has the correct percentage of silver?....

If the counterfeit was created utilizing the most common "Transfer Die" method, sacrificing a legit coin to create an Impact Die, all of the detail including chop marks would be reproduced.  This also results in a somewhat "mushy" appearance as there is a general loss of some detail pressing a coin into a die.

https://www.pcgs.com/News/The-Fundamentals-Of-Counterfeit-Detection--Part-1

The only thing I am left scratching my head over is the chop marks with the small mint mark, but I guess it's possible.

Edited May 14, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

On 5/14/2023 at 1:56 PM, EagleRJO said:

I cant think of another coin where anything remotely similar occurred.

I did own at one time an 1808 8 Reales that was chopmarked as it must have traveled to the Orient.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

There is just enough mushiness and roughness to make me think the coin is fake.  As others have said, I would not use chop marks as an authenticator.  Everything can be faked.  

Position on chop marks - I like nice, clean Trade Dollars, but... I do think chop marks are super interesting, and help to tell the story of the way these coins circulated.  I had bought one a while back from a dealer that was so hammered with chop marks that the coin looks like a suction cup (now THAT is a mutilated, budget friendly and fascinating coin).  All that said, I would grade them as damage, because it didn't happen during the minting process.

[EagleRJO]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:07 PM, powermad5000 said:

I did own at one time an 1808 8 Reales that was chopmarked as it must have traveled to the Orient.

That as well as other coins were chop marked (e.g. US Bust and Seated half dollars as well as Seated dollars), but entire runs of those coins from a mint were not bulk shipped directly to the Orient for use in trade, as they were for certain US T$ like the subject chopped 1874-S Trade Dollar.

Bags of these 1874-S Trade Dollars were then evaluated by "Shroffs", typically working for banks relative to the US T$ as they were sent in very large bulk shipments, and then chop marked if legit.  So still a unique situation that deserves special consideration in my mind, in agreement with the PCGS position.

On 5/15/2023 at 5:15 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

... I would grade them as damage, because it didn't happen during the minting process.

That would normally be the case, but I think PCGS has a compelling position on straight grading US T$ given the unique circumstances related to that.

On 5/15/2023 at 5:15 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I do think chop marks are super interesting, and help to tell the story of the way these coins circulated.

That is what draws me to chop marked US trade dollars.  

When I look at some of the chop marked Trade Dollars I have and hold them in my hand (no they are not in coin coffins ), I can picture a trader at an Asian sailing port in the late 1800's maybe flipping one in the air to pass some time or handing a bag of them to a merchant to purchase things like silk.

Edited May 16, 2023 by EagleRJO