Info/photos of Saudi 1- and 4-sovereign gold discs wanted 1 1

[RWB]

I'm currently assembling a die variety article about the Saudi 1- and 4-sovereign gold discs. This is to support collectors of these U.S. Mint bullion products and to help better identify contemporary counterfeits. If members have one or more of these pieces, please let me know so I can include their coin in the research. Thanks!

(I've been through the major auction company photos.)

Edited May 8, 2023 by RWB

[RWB]

Here are the disc specifications:

One Sovereign Equivalent	Four Sovereign Equivalent
Gross weight:     7.99 grams Alloy:                 Gold 0.916667,                            Copper 0.083333 Diameter:           22.05 millimeters Edge:                  Vertical reeding Obv design dia.: 17.50 millimeters Rev panel:          15.50 x 8.4 mm Year produced:  1947 Quantity:            121,364 Mint:                   U.S. Mint, Philadelphia	Gross weight:     31.96 grams Alloy:                 Gold 0.916667,                            Copper 0.083333 Diameter:           30.60 millimeters Edge:                  Vertical reeding Obv design dia.: 17.50 millimeters Rev panel:           24.45 x 8.4 mm Year produced:   1945 Quantity:             91,080 Mint:                   U.S. Mint, Philadelphia

*Both versions are undated.

[EarlyUS.com]

Roger, could you use pics of known counterfeits as well?  I'd imagine that would be a pretty popular section of your tome.

[RWB]

On 5/9/2023 at 2:35 PM, EarlyUS.com said:

Roger, could you use pics of known counterfeits as well?  I'd imagine that would be a pretty popular section of your tome.

Yes. Identifying contemporary counterfeits will be helpful. Modern fakes from China or Colorado can be identified using new techniques, which will not be discussed.

[EarlyUS.com]

On 5/9/2023 at 7:23 PM, RWB said:

Yes. Identifying contemporary counterfeits will be helpful. Modern fakes from China or Colorado can be identified using new techniques, which will not be discussed.

Roger, I will look for mine.  They are not modern counterfeits - at least not the most modern.  Fifteen years ago, I bought them from a 1990s collection.

Edited May 10, 2023 by EarlyUS.com

[GoldFinger1969]

Did you reach out to Saudi sources ?

[1946Hamm]

[RWB]

On 5/10/2023 at 7:03 AM, EarlyUS.com said:

Roger, I will look for mine.

That would be great!

[RWB]

On 5/10/2023 at 1:02 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did you reach out to Saudi sources ?

So far as I am informed, there are none. In the "Saudi Gold" book there is a photo of a display case at the ARAMCO Museum (If I recall the name -- it's in the book) and story about the gold discs. It is the same fiction as Boosel's story and all the others.

1946 Hamm -- Nice specimens. Your 4-P is the second most commonly seen die pair; the 1-P is also of the 2nd most common dies. If you bought them at a major auction, I might already have photos.

Edited May 11, 2023 by RWB

[1946Hamm]

RWB;; Bought raw from Jonathan Kern in 2003 and I sent them to PCGS.

[RWB]

Ahhh, then they are probably not in my database. Can I get higher resolution images for examination?

[1946Hamm]

 

On 5/11/2023 at 5:34 PM, RWB said:

Ahhh, then they are probably not in my database. Can I get higher resolution images for examination?

Here are high res scans taken within the hour. open in a different window to see full scale.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by 1946Hamm
wrong pics

[RWB]

Thanks! Just copied them. Will get back to you with a correction (if any) on the tentative varieties.

[EarlyUS.com]

Two counterfeits:

[RWB]

Thanks!

There appear to be more 1947 fakes than 1945 - but it's early in the examination.

[EarlyUS.com]

On 5/17/2023 at 3:11 PM, RWB said:

Thanks!

There appear to be more 1947 fakes than 1945 - but it's early in the examination.

Roger, I hereby grant you permission to freely use those photos for your reference or publication in any book, journal or other article.  Also, if you need them, I have 3000x3000 pixel images available for each.  That being said, I photographed them in their original 2x2 flips.  If you need really high quality images, I can extract them and re-image for you (I have a very good camera setup).

[RWB]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:43 AM, EarlyUS.com said:

Roger, I hereby grant you permission to freely use those photos for your reference or publication in any book, journal or other article.  Also, if you need them, I have 3000x3000 pixel images available for each.  That being said, I photographed them in their original 2x2 flips.  If you need really high quality images, I can extract them and re-image for you (I have a very good camera setup).

Thank you! If the photos are used I normally include a credit line, as approved by the coin owner. Please think about what your would like. Higher resolution and sharper images would be better for publication.

Also, really sharp new images would be very helpful - especially for the 2nd disc. (It was once declared that all discs without stippling inside the D and some other letters were fake - which is not the case. I want to compare more closely your 2nd disc with genuine ones to see why it was identified as counterfeit.)

[EarlyUS.com]

Roger, sure, I will get you much better pics.  Give me a bit of time as I am heading out of time tomorrow on business.  If you want to credit me: James Garcia, EarlyUS.com (although my website is currently messed up  ).  I will get my macro lens setup and get you images in the 4000x4000 range.

[RWB]

OK. I think you have my email address - so that's the best way to handle the photos and confirming credit lines, etc.

[Henri Charriere]

Gentlemen, as the reigning rank amateur on the Forum, which all agree has remained largely unchallenged, I should like to volunteer a [possibly premature] observation as regarding the disc as displayed in the second position:  not one to recklessly cast aspersions on the good name and otherwise sterling character of the counterfeiter(s) involved, or the quality of the art as executed, I nevertheless feel the pudgy numerals in the weight depicted, not to mention the "filled-in" aspect of the numeral four, invite attention for further scrutiny.  IMHO.  🤣

[J P M]

On 5/18/2023 at 11:12 AM, RWB said:

Thank you! If the photos are used I normally include a credit line, as approved by the coin owner. Please think about what your would like. Higher resolution and sharper images would be better for publication.

Also, really sharp new images would be very helpful - especially for the 2nd disc. (It was once declared that all discs without stippling inside the D and some other letters were fake - which is not the case. I want to compare more closely your 2nd disc with genuine ones to see why it was identified as counterfeit.)

I am thinking the second disk is not a copy also. Everything is more defined on that one 

[RWB]

The eagles came from the same master die - as specifically directed in 1947. The 1945 fake has a lot of recutting and other changes (plus being "fat") suggesting the perpetrator was trying to improve appearance.

Both pairs of photos are a little fuzzy which can hide certain details of manufacture. All of this is part of the investigation....