Star Rating Consideration 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

According to this website, "fewer than 1% of the coins graded by NGC get a star [ * ] rating."  While world coins are routinely graded by NGC -- many submitted to their foreign offices -- no such coins are presently eligible for star rating consideration.  Not all U.S. coin series qualify for such consideration, but the ones that do must be in Mint State or Proof condition.  Your thoughts?

[VKurtB]

My thoughts are that one can far too easily read too much into a star rating. It has been unevenly applied over time. It took years for it to exist at all. If a coin has it, it has a special attribute. If it does NOT have the star, it may ALSO have a special attribute. Wonderful, right?

[Henri Charriere]

I was gratified to learn the 64+ passed muster with you. While not star quality, I believe you recognized the same special attributes it displayed as I did. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/6/2023 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I was gratified to learn the 64+ passed muster with you. While not star quality, I believe you recognized the same special attributes it displayed as I did. 

It is a magnificent piece. I am a luster fan, first and foremost. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by VKurtB

[J P M]

I own one star coin a PF68* it looks Cameo on one side . Maybe that is why it got a star. I think it is a easy out for grading company's it is almost a 69 but not quite, lets give it a star..?  I would have rather had a 69 

[Jason Abshier]

On 5/6/2023 at 8:22 PM, J P M said:

I own one star coin a PF68* it looks Cameo on one side . Maybe that is why it got a star. I think it is a easy out for grading company's it is almost a 69 but not quite, lets give it a star..?  I would have rather had a 69 

Star attribute is only based on grader’s  eye appeal . Basically a unique coin the grader felt it was cool looking at so they gave it star … I have seen one coin with a Grade (+) star together on the same slab … I’ve only seen one example of that I believe it was a Morgan dollar if I remember correctly  … However the Star grade has its small cult followers I know a few people who hunt down and collect star graded NGC slabs …

it would be unique is PCGS would adopt this as well but they won’t it would open up a secondary market for star graded coins for their uniqueness … 

[RWB]

I've never seen a coin with a " * " or '" + " on the label that deserved it. The numerical grades themselves are too flexible and imprecise to be very reliable.

(But, I prefer consistency and quality to cute sales symbols.)

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/6/2023 at 9:21 PM, RWB said:

I've never seen a coin with a " * " or '" + " on the label that deserved it. The numerical grades themselves are too flexible and imprecise to be very reliable.

(But, I prefer consistency and quality to cute sales symbols.)

Okay, but after the * comes ❤️ , which is so extra special it cannot be expressed in mere words.  . 

[Henri Charriere]

To @J P M and @Jason Abshier...

NGC's comprehensive examination of this topic may be found in:

"Understanding and Recognizing a Star," as posted on 5/1/]2022. (I am not sure how you may locate it as I am Link-illiterate and resorted to finding it on Google.)

One statement buried in the post reads, "... if there is a single objection to a particular coin receiving a star designation upon quality control inspection, it loses the star."  (Emphases mine.) 

A complete list of the series (denominations) of coins is listed, but bear in mind the post is 20 years old.

(If someone can provide a link, it would be greatly appreciated.  If you're not exactly sure what's involved in the "star-making" process, this will surely "broaden your body of knowledge" as a late, great, seasoned veteran would say.)

Edited May 7, 2023 by Henri Charriere
To correct post date.

[Sandon]

    The NGC "star" (*) graded coins I've seen have been one-sided proof-likes, near cameo proofs like @J P M's 1968-S proof nickel, or coins with toning of the sorts that some collectors consider attractive.  Neither "star" grades awarded by NGC nor the "plus" (+) grades awarded by both NGC and PCGS are recognized by the A.N.A. grading standards. 

   The more grades are used, the more subjective grading becomes! It's bad enough that the A.N.A. standards recognize eleven different mint state grades, not to mention multiple numerical grades for individual adjectival circulated grades. Experienced graders can honestly disagree over whether, for example, a mint state or proof coin should be graded "64" or "65", which can mean a big difference in the coin's list price.  Adding "plus" grades effectively doubles the number of grades in the categories where those grades are used. The same graders might now disagree over whether the coin is a "64", a "64+", a "65" and perhaps a "65+" as well!  They might also disagree whether the toning or reflectivity of the coin merit it a "star" grade. The system is overly complicated, yet imprecise, as noted by @RWB.

[physics-fan3.14]

On 5/6/2023 at 8:41 PM, Jason Abshier said:

I have seen one coin with a Grade (+) star together on the same slab … I’ve only seen one example of that I believe it was a Morgan dollar if I remember correctly

I own a 1963 MS-65+* FBL Franklin:

 

[Henri Charriere]

There are some Franklins, I cannot recall whether w/ or w/o FBL, which have barely legible bell text.

I am curious to know exactly what it would say if one could read it.

[Jason Abshier]

On 5/6/2023 at 10:25 PM, Sandon said:

Neither "star" grades awarded by NGC nor the "plus" (+) grades awarded by both NGC and PCGS are recognized by the A.N.A. grading standards. 

If I remember correctly years ago … it was PCGS that started all the (+) grading (of course PCGS owned by a bunch dealers desperate to make more $$$ and control the coin market) …

I believe at first NGC didn’t want to adopt the (+) grade but later NGC caved in and  joined the bandwagon on (+) grading… at that time I did notice a lot of PCGS coins graded with (+) compared to NGC grading not to sure now a days I haven’t really looked into it much population wise ? Pretty difficult to determine because when you look up for example a MS65 + coin on PCGS cert database they only show it under MS65 and not MS65+  ….

if I also remember correctly NGC announced they adopted the Star (*) however as usual PCGS being snobs like they are in the market said they did NOT want to adopt the (*) star on their graded coins

What I find goofy is I’ve seen a few graded coins (+) with a green bean CAC sticker 😒 kinda defeats the purpose of the CAC sticker when there is a (+) on the slab 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Jason Abshier

[“”]

I own quite a few coins with the * designation including some that have the + and *. Most do have attractive toning generally on both sides of the coin, but some are toned only on one side. In addition, I own quite a few proof coins with the * designation. 
 

If anyone cares to take a look at EBay, do a search for 1965, 1966 or 1967 SMS coins and check out the * coins in nickels, dimes, quarters and halves!

 

[“”]

The coin shown was recently graded by a gentleman I know which has both the + and *!

[physics-fan3.14]

On 5/7/2023 at 8:32 AM, Simple Collector said:

The coin shown was recently graded by a gentleman I know which has both the + and *!

Wow! That is gorgeous! 

[Coinbuf]

On 5/7/2023 at 4:04 AM, Jason Abshier said:

not to sure now a days I haven’t really looked into it much population wise ? Pretty difficult to determine because when you look up for example a MS65 + coin on PCGS cert database they only show it under MS65 and not MS65+  ….

This is incorrect, in both the coinfacts and pop database PCGS breaks out the + population from the non + population for each grade.

On 5/7/2023 at 4:04 AM, Jason Abshier said:

What I find goofy is I’ve seen a few graded coins (+) with a green bean CAC sticker 😒 kinda defeats the purpose of the CAC sticker when there is a (+) on the slab 

I am unsure why you find this "goofy" or feel that it defeats the sticker.   CAC has said all along that they do not take the + into consideration, so a green bean is awarded on the whole grade not the +.

[Jason Abshier]

On 5/7/2023 at 11:10 AM, Coinbuf said:

I am unsure why you find this "goofy" or feel that it defeats the sticker.   CAC has said all along that they do not take the + into consideration, so a green bean is awarded on the whole grade not the +.

CAC supposed to bean a coin they feel is in the upper tier for that grade it was assigned possibly an up shot getting a higher grade … now it already had a (+) grade why even bother beaning it ? The + means it’s already on upper side of that grade but just a hair down from getting the next upper grade 

[Jason Abshier]

On 5/7/2023 at 11:10 AM, Coinbuf said:

This is incorrect, in both the coinfacts and pop database PCGS breaks out the + population from the non + population for each grade.

They must of caught up with it because years ago when they started it there was no way of knowing … that’s why I stated “not sure now a days” I haven’t looked into it much or have it much thought … 

[Coinbuf]

On 5/7/2023 at 8:52 AM, Jason Abshier said:

CAC supposed to bean a coin they feel is in the upper tier for that grade it was assigned possibly an up shot getting a higher grade … now it already had a (+) grade why even bother beaning it ? The + means it’s already on upper side of that grade but just a hair down from getting the next upper grade 

The + only means that the TPG believes it is of superior quality, not CAC.   Believe it or not there are + and * graded coins that have failed to receive a bean from CAC, and regardless of any one individual's opinion on CAC the market values that little green bean more than any TPG grade add on most of the time.

[Jason Abshier]

On 5/7/2023 at 11:59 AM, Coinbuf said:

The + only means that the TPG believes it is of superior quality, not CAC

Then explain to me what real difference between + and what is the real purpose of CAC green bean ? Not the gold , just the green ? I’m lost here I know for fact that what the + was used long before John Albanese started CAC … CAC to me means the same thing as + for that grade on a coin the plus was supposed to be for a coin in upper tier for the grade it was assigned isn’t that same ideology behind CAC green bean …

I agree with you that CAC opened a secondary market for coins that was basically what the + was to do but failed at it not all coins merit that + …. I myself own a good handful of CAC coins a… 

[VKurtB]

Explain what it means when a + coin has never seen CAC’s offices. 

[Coinbuf]

On 5/7/2023 at 10:29 AM, Jason Abshier said:

Then explain to me what real difference between + and what is the real purpose of CAC green bean ? Not the gold , just the green ? I’m lost here I know for fact that what the + was used long before John Albanese started CAC … CAC to me means the same thing as + for that grade on a coin the plus was supposed to be for a coin in upper tier for the grade it was assigned isn’t that same ideology behind CAC green bean …

I agree with you that CAC opened a secondary market for coins that was basically what the + was to do but failed at it not all coins merit that + …. I myself own a good handful of CAC coins a… 

Well first let's begin with getting the facts straight, starting with the proper definition of what each stands for.   A green bean is awarded for coins that are (this is directly from the CAC website) "solid or premium quality for their assigned grade".   From the PCGS website; "Plus Grades" exhibit exceptional eye appeal for the grade and constitute the top 30% of the coins in the grade".   From the NGC website; "NGC assigns a + to coins at the high end of their assigned grade, approaching the quality requirements for the next grade".   So, as we can see none of the three services define the same or are completely aligned or equal when it comes to a + grade and/or a CAC green bean.   Also let us set the record straight on the timeline, I do not recall exactly when CAC first started but I believe it was in 2007, perhaps 2008.   I do know that CAC opened up submission opportunities to collectors in 2010 and had been in business for a few years prior to allowing collectors to submit.   Both PCGS and NGC started plus grading in March of 2010, so actually the plus grading was a response to CAC and came about after CAC had begun operations.

As to the differences, well that is more about different ideologies and concepts of quality than a written in stone standard or policy.   A green bean is given to a coin that JA feels is solid or high end for the grade, where the TPG's tend to give plus grades to coins they feel are on the verge of the next grade (what CAC would call premium quality) or in the eyes of the graders meet some nebulous feeling of exceptional eye appeal.  But when you consider that you see green beans on non plus graded coins that makes sense, JA has decided that coin is at a minimum solid for the grade, it may not be exceptional, but at least solid.   And from the definitions from the TPG websites both say they have a higher bar than just solid for the grade thus no plus, at least at the time of that grading event.

And there is yet a third component to the CAC green bean, initially the point of the green bean was for JA to bean those coins he felt met the criteria of coins he wanted to make a market in so that when those coins came to auction he could easily identify them.   Often I read or hear someone say they don't understand why this or that coin got a bean as it is of inferior quality in their eyes.   I get that, but it is just possible that some coins are given a bean simply because JA would like to be a buyer of that coin, here I'm thinking of some of the more rare and seldom seen coins.   Not rare in the sense of the 1913 nickel, but civil war date coins where the mintages are very low as are the surviving populations.   Keeping in mind that this was the core reason that CAC was started can be helpful in understanding why we might perceive differences that we cannot explain.

[RWB]

If there is a " + " then there should be a matching " - " with the opposite meaning.  I guess for a "star" there should be a "singularity." (Paging Stephen Hawking -- Wake up there in Westminster ! )

[VKurtB]

On 5/7/2023 at 3:39 PM, RWB said:

If there is a " + " then there should be a matching " - " with the opposite meaning.  I guess for a "star" there should be a "singularity." (Paging Stephen Hawking -- Wake up there in Westminster ! )

Stephen Hawking died March 14, 2018 at Cambridge. No zombies permitted. No word on whether the chair still runs.

Edited May 7, 2023 by VKurtB

[Jason Abshier]

On 5/7/2023 at 4:11 PM, Coinbuf said:

Well first let's begin with getting the facts straight, starting with the proper definition of what each stands for.   A green bean is awarded for coins that are (this is directly from the CAC website) "solid or premium quality for their assigned grade".   From the PCGS website; "Plus Grades" exhibit exceptional eye appeal for the grade and constitute the top 30% of the coins in the grade".   From the NGC website; "NGC assigns a + to coins at the high end of their assigned grade, approaching the quality requirements for the next grade".   So, as we can see none of the three services define the same or are completely aligned or equal when it comes to a + grade and/or a CAC green bean.   Also let us set the record straight on the timeline, I do not recall exactly when CAC first started but I believe it was in 2007, perhaps 2008.   I do know that CAC opened up submission opportunities to collectors in 2010 and had been in business for a few years prior to allowing collectors to submit.   Both PCGS and NGC started plus grading in March of 2010, so actually the plus grading was a response to CAC and came about after CAC had begun operations.

As to the differences, well that is more about different ideologies and concepts of quality than a written in stone standard or policy.   A green bean is given to a coin that JA feels is solid or high end for the grade, where the TPG's tend to give plus grades to coins they feel are on the verge of the next grade (what CAC would call premium quality) or in the eyes of the graders meet some nebulous feeling of exceptional eye appeal.  But when you consider that you see green beans on non plus graded coins that makes sense, JA has decided that coin is at a minimum solid for the grade, it may not be exceptional, but at least solid.   And from the definitions from the TPG websites both say they have a higher bar than just solid for the grade thus no plus, at least at the time of that grading event.

And there is yet a third component to the CAC green bean, initially the point of the green bean was for JA to bean those coins he felt met the criteria of coins he wanted to make a market in so that when those coins came to auction he could easily identify them.   Often I read or hear someone say they don't understand why this or that coin got a bean as it is of inferior quality in their eyes.   I get that, but it is just possible that some coins are given a bean simply because JA would like to be a buyer of that coin, here I'm thinking of some of the more rare and seldom seen coins.   Not rare in the sense of the 1913 nickel, but civil war date coins where the mintages are very low as are the surviving populations.   Keeping in mind that this was the core reason that CAC was started can be helpful in understanding why we might perceive differences that we cannot explain.

@Coinbuf well explained 👏 it all make sense now …

[rrantique]

MS66*

[rrantique]

MS62

 

[VKurtB]

On 5/8/2023 at 12:56 AM, rrantique said:

MS62

 

I’m groovin’ on those frosty devices. 

[World Colonial]

On 5/6/2023 at 9:21 PM, RWB said:

I've never seen a coin with a " * " or '" + " on the label that deserved it. The numerical grades themselves are too flexible and imprecise to be very reliable.

(But, I prefer consistency and quality to cute sales symbols.)

I'm still waiting for @, #, $, %. ^. &, and - (minus).  I could add a few more too.  It's on my keyboard.