Dan DJ Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 (edited) Another coin I was lucky to acquire at a farmer estate years ago, and I will keep in my collection, is this1787 Fugio Cent (Round Club Rays - Newman 3-D). I am worried that the small spots of verdigris on the obverse are growing; if I submit it to NCS, will that conservation service stop the spread? Is this amount of verdigris enough to make it ungradable you think? Edited May 5, 2023 by Dan DJ Missing tags Coinbuf and rrantique 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 (edited) NCS claims to be able to remove "verdigris", but I'm not sure if the black and green corrosion on your Fugio copper (possibly copper sulfate and/or other copper compounds) is what is referred to as "verdigris". The removal of the green and black encrustations would likely leave pits in their place. Other than removing surface dirt through a solvent such as acetone, one should perhaps leave such coins alone. Here is a link to NCS's claims as to what NCS can and cannot do: Coin Conservation | NCS | Numismatic Conservation Services | NGC (ngccoin.com) Edited May 5, 2023 by Sandon omitted redundant word Coinbuf and Dan DJ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 You can always send the coin to NCS for evaluation, if they feel that the best course of action is to do nothing that is what they will do. Fair warning, should NCS decide to go ahead with conservation and you do not like the look after there is no going back. powermad5000 and Dan DJ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newenglandrarities Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 I wouldn’t be too worried about the green spreading anytime soon. Very common to see on Fugios and since the green seems to be in a planchet void, removing it will not really overall impact the coin. From a standpoint of straight grading, it is quite possible it will with the little green, as issues like this are expected on colonial coinage of this era. Dan DJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan DJ Posted May 5, 2023 Author Share Posted May 5, 2023 On 5/5/2023 at 6:28 PM, Newenglandrarities said: I wouldn’t be too worried about the green spreading anytime soon. Very common to see on Fugios and since the green seems to be in a planchet void, removing it will not really overall impact the coin. From a standpoint of straight grading, it is quite possible it will with the little green, as issues like this are expected on colonial coinage of this era. I hope you are right on all your points, thanks for the reply! I am likely to send in with NCS conservation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan DJ Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 FYI- I finally sent this coin into NCS, so we shall see what they can do if anything before grading it. I will post the result here when I get it back. EagleRJO and powermad5000 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenstang Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Good luck then, I hope it is genuine. It would be nice to have a genuine coin found after all of the counterfeits we see on the forum. Please do give us the results either way for our own education. Dan DJ and powermad5000 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan DJ Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 Well, I got the coin back now after submitting it to NCS/NGC (first submission ever) and I am reporting back as I said I would. Overall I am very disappointed with the grading service, and I doubt I will trust them again with my business. I don’t trust they properly graded my coin for several reasons. The main one is that they categorized it wrong (entered it as a 4 Cinq Pointed Rays Fugio, which it obviously is not) as soon as they unpackaged it, even though I had a detailed and correct description in my submission paperwork. I caught that right away and reached out, and then I was reassured that the actual grader will correct the error, but if they didn’t then I could contact service and get they would correct it before shipping, however all 3 layers of the service failed me, then they shipped the coin to me anyway. I now have to ship/submit it again to get it corrected. Although they will pay for to have it reholdered with the correct label I am told, I still need to fill out the paperwork again, pay for shipping again, plus wait another month to get it back. I also paid for the optional imaging services, but that too is disappointing, as the coin details and natural colors were not captured at all. My first attempt from my phone camera is way better IMO, as you can judge below yourself. All of that lack of detail/quality in their grading process makes me believe they did not grade it accurately either, which is my instinct for other reasons. NGC photo: My phone’s first photo attempt: The NGC photo makes it look too red as if it is water damaged copper, but in reality it is mostly a milk chocolate brown color. Now I have to decide what to do next; send it back or skip it and send it to the “other” big grading company. My worry about that 2nd option is they will claim it is cleaned (by NCS). Lessons learned I guess. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Sorry to hear you are disappointed in your first submission. Many of us have travelled that road. While people can and do make mistakes, it is good you know the proper attribution and can have that corrected. Imho, the coin itself looks better after the conservation effort than the initial photo. I do not pay any extra for the imaging service. I photo all of my coins myself when they return. I will say I have noticed some of the photos even in the verification tab seem a little on the darker side to me. Not sure why. As for the grade itself, what did it return as? And what did you think it was going to grade at? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan DJ Posted February 21 Author Share Posted February 21 On 2/20/2024 at 10:27 PM, powermad5000 said: Sorry to hear you are disappointed in your first submission. Many of us have travelled that road. While people can and do make mistakes, it is good you know the proper attribution and can have that corrected. Imho, the coin itself looks better after the conservation effort than the initial photo. I do not pay any extra for the imaging service. I photo all of my coins myself when they return. I will say I have noticed some of the photos even in the verification tab seem a little on the darker side to me. Not sure why. As for the grade itself, what did it return as? And what did you think it was going to grade at? Just curious. In real life the obverse of the coin looks untouched by NCS; the reverse shows signs of some debris being removed in 2 or 3 areas, but they left the green alone. It graded as Environmental Damage, VF details, and I hoped that the minimal amount of green being located in the planchette voids combined with the nearly 250 year age and circulated condition would have seen that as normal/minimal damage. My suspicion is that the many planchette flaws were observed as being corrosion by the grader, who I suspect is not a colonial coin expert since they didn’t catch the error on coin classification. Will never know for sure though. It would be nice if the invoice included notes from the grader to understand the reasoning for their grades. Thanks for the post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 On 2/21/2024 at 2:04 PM, Dan DJ said: It would be nice if the invoice included notes from the grader to understand the reasoning for their grades. This has never been the case. They don’t explain anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 If NCS determined that the coin wouldn't benefit from "conservation", you should have only been charged a $5 evaluation fee instead of the $25 minimum "standard" conservation fee. See NCS Conservation Services and Fees | NGC (ngccoin.com). If they charged you the conservation fee, they presumably did something. I think it is reprehensible that NGC misattributed this Fugio copper as a "Pointed Rays" variety when a glance at the standard "Redbook" would have revealed it to have "Club Rays." I don't think that either "top tier" grading service does a good job attributing or grading early coppers, which are really a specialty of certain traditional numismatists and were fine in their paper coin envelopes with handwritten notes. Most of them have surface issues that preclude numerical grading and/or striking issues that make them very difficult to grade. I wouldn't bother with the expense of shipping it back for correction. (If you attend one of the major shows where NGC accepts submissions, you should be able to submit it for "mechanical error" correction without the shipping cost.) Otherwise, you might consider removing it from its incorrectly labeled holder and placing it in your own holder with a correct attribution. Dan DJ and powermad5000 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 On 2/21/2024 at 7:56 PM, Sandon said: .... Otherwise, you might consider removing it from its incorrectly labeled holder and placing it in your own holder with a correct attribution. I suppose so, but then the "contract" between submitter and submittee is null and void. It would be a total loss: submission fee, authentification, certification and encapsulation. If this had happened to me I would have picked up the phone or emailed NGC Customer Service, explained the matter with paperwork in hand, and asked for direction. The misattribution cannot be allowed to stand. It must be addressed. powermad5000 and Dan DJ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan DJ Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 On 2/21/2024 at 6:56 PM, Sandon said: If NCS determined that the coin wouldn't benefit from "conservation", you should have only been charged a $5 evaluation fee instead of the $25 minimum "standard" conservation fee. See NCS Conservation Services and Fees | NGC (ngccoin.com). If they charged you the conservation fee, they presumably did something. I think it is reprehensible that NGC misattributed this Fugio copper as a "Pointed Rays" variety when a glance at the standard "Redbook" would have revealed it to have "Club Rays." I don't think that either "top tier" grading service does a good job attributing or grading early coppers, which are really a specialty of certain traditional numismatists and were fine in their paper coin envelopes with handwritten notes. Most of them have surface issues that preclude numerical grading and/or striking issues that make them very difficult to grade. I wouldn't bother with the expense of shipping it back for correction. (If you attend one of the major shows where NGC accepts submissions, you should be able to submit it for "mechanical error" correction without the shipping cost.) Otherwise, you might consider removing it from its incorrectly labeled holder and placing it in your own holder with a correct attribution. Thanks so much for this reply Sandon! I hope to go to one of the big shows in the somewhat near future, so I will probably wait like you suggested. I also want to meet people like you that are serious and experienced collectors. I love old coppers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 On 2/21/2024 at 9:06 PM, Dan DJ said: .... I love old coppers! Me, too! I may no longer own any, but they remain my first love. powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
