A Few More Morgans 0

[Fitzz]

Thought I would post pics of a few more Morgans to get opinions on.

[Mr.Bill347]

Fitzz I think you hit the mother lode of fake Morgan’s! 

[powermad5000]

Your 1886 might get an MS 61 or maybe MS 62. Your 1889 CC is another fake from probably the same dies used in your other post with the 4 counterfeits as it has the same characteristic weak TY in LIBERTY. Your 1893 is also a counterfeit being most of the numerals are misshapen.

[Fitzz]

Got a whole bag of them.  There must be some good coins in here somewhere.  I think I will start posting the Peace dollars next.  Thanks everone for your help and feedback. 

[Sandon]

   If you want to collect coins, you must learn what the genuine ones look like!  FYI, here are photos of a genuine 1889-CC from the NGC Coin Explorer, one of the resources mentioned in the topic to which I referred you. Note the differences in the date and fine details between it and any of the counterfeits you have posted.

 

[Fitzz]

Thank you, Sandon.  I see what you mean, and agree with you!

[EagleRJO]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:56 PM, Fitzz said:

Got a whole bag of them.  There must be some good coins in here somewhere.

You really need to learn how to evaluate these coins yourself as it's not reasonable to expect members to go through countless posts to work your way through a bag of them, which look like they are turning out to be fakes.  Did you acquire this bag of Morgans from the same source, which might be a clue as to authenticity.

Have you compared the details of the coins to those shown on NGC Coin Explorer as recommended by Sandon?

Once it looks like it might be legit just looking at general details the next step to authenticate Morgans is to go to VAM World and try to identify a particular VAM with the coin in hand, starting with the date and mark then looking for other markers.  A lot of the markers just can't be picked up very well with pics.

http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/Morgan_VAMs_by_Date

Btw, much better job with the pics keeping them in focus and cropping them, which make it much easier for members to see and evaluate.

Edited April 18, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Fitzz]

Hey Sandon!  Using your pic and guidance, I think I found a real.Morgan CC.  It's not 1889, but 1884.  And it really does look genuine to me. Plus, I think I just figured out how to sharply focus my pics!  Check these out.

[Fitzz]

OK, EagleRKO, I got ya.  You're right. I won't post anymore pics after these last ones.

[Sandon]

   This does appear to be a genuine uncirculated 1884-CC, the most common Carson City dollar, the vast majority of whose original mintage remained in Treasury vaults in 1964. They nevertheless command respectable prices these days.

   If these coins are loose in a bag, it is very important that you place them in separate holders, such as mylar flips, capsules, or other hard plastic holders to prevent them from acquiring additional scratches and abrasions. 

[powermad5000]

The 1884 CC might be a VAM-2 which is an 1884 18/18 CC. It looks like it may have the lines at the base of the numerals which is shown in the photo below from the NGC VarietyPlus page.

[Fitzz]

Thank you for your help.  I don't have any of the plastic flip holders yet; but I ordered some from Amazon. I am not a coin collector.  Just a guy who stumbled into some coins.  I am going to research that NGC VarietyPlus page you refer to.

[EagleRJO]

On 4/18/2023 at 12:42 AM, Fitzz said:

I don't have any of the plastic flip holders yet; but I ordered some from Amazon

I would not use the plastic flip holders because you can cause "flip rub" on coins  (https://www.pcgs.com/News/Examining-Contact-Marks-On-Coins), which could downgrade a coin from say an MS to an AU slider, as a result of minor rub marks from sliding coins in and out of the flips.

It's better to use say DirectFit capsules or PCCB slab holders, with either available on Amazon.

Edited April 19, 2023 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:08 PM, EagleRJO said:

Once it looks like it might be legit just looking at general details the next step to authenticate Morgans is to go to VAM World and try to identify a particular VAM with the coin in hand, starting with the date and mark then looking for other markers.

Since you have a bag of Morgans to go through an example of this using the first 1886 (P) is to first access PCGS CoinFacts for that coin, and go to "view more images" ...

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1886-1/images/7166

Scroll down until you see one that is close to the condition, which for that coin looks like a low MS grade (MS60 to MS62) since there isn't any significant wear, but there are multiple contact or bag marks on the obverse face and neck which knocks it down in grade.  Also make sure the obverse and reverse have matching dies, as some counterfeits get that wrong.  Comparing the overall details it looks pretty good, so next go to VAM World and look up that coin ...

http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1886-P_VAMs

There are a bunch of VAMs, so first look at the date and see where it is relative to the "neck point" in terms of the denticles (i.e. check if its a "near date" or "far date") and how much above the rim it is (i.e. check if its a "high date") to narrow down the choices.  Also check if the font of the date matches.

For that coin it looks like its a normal distance away from the neck point (a little more than two denticles away from the neck point), and set a little higher than usual (see attached), with a pretty good match on the date font.

It does look like the coin has a "high date", since it's set a little high, which helps narrow it down and would be either a VAM-7 or VAM-31.  You would have to look at the coin in-hand to see if there is any minor doubling of the ear lobe (VAM-31), otherwise it would be a VAM-7.  From the pic I can't be sure, but it doesn't appear to have a doubled ear lobe.  So the end result is that it seems to be a legit low MS grade Morgan dollar that is a VAM-7.

Keep in mind that this check isn't an absolute in verifying a Morgan is authentic as it's just based on some pics which doesn't tell the whole story, and some counterfeits are extremely close to the real deal for some of the higher value Morgans.  But that is a good step to take, in addition to carefully checking dimensions and weights, relative to evaluating a raw Morgan.

Hope that helps out going through the bag, and it may seem a little overwhelming at first, but after going through a few like above you should start to get the hang of it.

Edited April 20, 2023 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

If you are using a modern smartphone, the pics should not appear that blurry.  Buy a mini-tripod which provides crystal-clear motion-free images. 

[EagleRJO]

On 4/19/2023 at 1:39 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Buy a mini-tripod which provides crystal-clear motion-free images. 

Alternately rest your arm on a stack of books or similar.  

On 4/17/2023 at 10:27 PM, Fitzz said:

OK, EagleRKO, I got ya.  You're right. I won't post anymore pics after these last ones.

It's not an easy task going through VAMs for someone who has no experience with coin collecting, so I would take a stab at a few that look promising and post what you think the VAM is with some focused pics to get some feedback.  Then as you go through them post ones where it may be questionable, which no doubt will happen as sometimes evaluating VAMs for Morgans can be as clear as muddy water.  

On 4/17/2023 at 11:25 PM, powermad5000 said:

The 1884 CC might be a VAM-2 which is an 1884 18/18 CC. It looks like it may have the lines at the base of the numerals which is shown in the photo below from the NGC VarietyPlus page.

For the 1884-CC I think the line at the base of the date on the op's coin is too straight to be a VAM-2.  Pics are still a little too blurry, but might be an earlier die state VAM-3A.  The date and mark seem to be a pretty good match, as well as what may be a die chip/break at the top left wreath, but without the die crack extending thru the stars from the date.  Coin in-hand or much better pics are really needed there, but a VAM-3A would be my call.

Edited April 20, 2023 by EagleRJO