6516864 scheduled for grading 1 1

[Ernest Nichols]

On 4/20/2023 at 12:10 PM, EagleRJO said:

Has a specific gravity test been done to help identify the type of metal?

Not that i am aware of… what exactly is a gravity test? They have a XRF

[Ernest Nichols]

On 4/20/2023 at 12:22 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

Not that i am aware of… what exactly is a gravity test? They have a XRF

Is this something they can do with a standard service? Even though they already charged an extra $30 after the initial payment of $50

[Ernest Nichols]

On 4/20/2023 at 12:10 PM, EagleRJO said:

Has a specific gravity test been done to help identify the type of metal?

Not that i am aware of. How does that determine the metal composition?

[Sandon]

On 4/20/2023 at 3:22 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

what exactly is a gravity test?

   This is a test that is used to determine a coin or other metal object's composition.  I copied the following detailed explanation from the 1984 Coin World Almanac. (Due to the thickness of the book, I could not scan all of it clearly.) There may be newer techniques of conducting the test and more precise measurements, which I assume you could find by searching "specific gravity" online:

Edited April 20, 2023 by Sandon

[Ernest Nichols]

On 4/20/2023 at 12:24 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

Is this something they can do with a standard service? Even though they already charged an extra $30 after the initial payment of $50

My question is when i did the online submission it said it was going to be around $50 and then 4 weeks later i had 80 taken from my account. Let hope they do the right thing here. I took it to Scottsdale coin and they could not determine the exact metal but did rule out Gold Silver,Copper And Brass. He said by the looks and sound and weight that it is probably zinc lead pewter and or possibly other white metals. It does have a ting sound when dropped 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Ernest Nichols

[EagleRJO]

On 4/20/2023 at 3:22 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

Not that i am aware of… what exactly is a gravity test? They have a XRF

Its "specific gravity" (SG), and it is a test to help identify the composition of materials, such as metals used for coins, by measuring a relative density or unit weight (e.g. grams/cm^3) of the material and comparing that to published values.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_gravity

The Coin World Almanac pages Sandon scanned have additional information about this test and published values for some common coin materials.  Note that lead and (pure) silver have distinctly different SG values (11.35 vs. 10.50).

XRF (or "X-Ray Fluorescence) is a newer technology used to identify the composition of various materials, and what many of the larger coin dealers presently use to establish the type of metal used for coins.  Both NGC and PCGS offer this testing as an add-on service.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/1591/

Edited April 21, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Ernest Nichols]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:55 AM, Ernest Nichols said:

Also, other than the stars and stripes… the wreath runs in the opposite direction 

Well, heres what i got today… hopefully thats not whats going on the label or it going back.

[Greenstang]

And the results are in.

Do they still charge full fees if the token is not genuine?

NGC Cert #

6516864-001

NGC Description

(1861-65) CIVIL WAR F-230/352B a OUR COUNTRY TOKEN

NGC Grade

NOT GENUINE

Edited May 1, 2023 by Greenstang
Add copy

[Ernest Nichols]

And since NGC has there policies the way they do…. As soon as i get it, i will re-submit it. But, this time i will ask for a XRF test. I will not take not genuine for results until this is done. Why they could not just bill my credit card the extra $75 while its still there is beyond me.

[Greenstang]

An XRF test will not tell you if it is genuine or not, all it will tell you is the metal it is made of. 
Also you have to request this on your submission form, they will not do it otherwise.

[Ernest Nichols]

I realize this… thank you

[EagleRJO]

On 5/1/2023 at 2:41 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

As soon as i get it, i will re-submit it. But, this time i will ask for a XRF test. I will not take not genuine for results until this is done.

I think you would be wasting your money resubmitting with the XRF testing requested.  It's not like it was graded "Questionable Authenticity" where it is not known if it's legit because there was no testing to identify the type of metal.  It was graded "Not Genuine" which is definitive that the token is not legit even without testing.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6436/

Detail wise it does look close to an F-230/352B (attached) with the wreath running counter clockwise and the horizontal bars at the upper part of the shield (and not the F-231/352A you mentioned where the wreath and shield do not match).

However, there are only two variations of the F-230/352B listed by NGC which are F-230/352Ba (copper or bronze) or F-230/352Bb (brass).  The coin is obviously not copper or brass.  In addition it has an off grainy surface with mushy details.  So NGC graded it "Not Genuine".

What do you hope NGC will change by resubmitting the coin with XRF testing?  Possibly a new variety of the F-230/352B with a different metal, putting aside the off appearance?

Edited May 3, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/2/2023 at 1:29 AM, EagleRJO said:

I think you would be wasting your money resubmitting with the XRF.  It's not like it was graded "Questionable Authenticity" where it is not known if is legit because there was no testing to identify the type of metal.  It was graded "Not Genuine" which is definitive that the token is not legit even without testing.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6436/

Detail wise it does look like an F-230/352B (attached) with the wreath running counter clockwise and the horizontal bars at the upper part of the shield (and not the F-231/352A you mentioned where the wreath and shield do not match).  However, there are only two variations of the F-230/352B listed by NGC which are F-230/352Ba (copper or bronze) or F-230/352Bb (brass).  The coin is obviously not copper or brass, so NGC graded it "Not Genuine".

What do you hope NGC will change by resubmitting the coin with XRF testing?  Possibly a new variety of the F-230/352B with a different metal?  I understand that is a very difficult thing to accomplish.

A good percentage were made of copper by Scovill manufacturers and could have been very possible that this token was hand struck on a white metal planchet. However, there was a gentleman by the name of Henry Higgins that could have struck some 230/352b in white metal as well. Scovill manufacturing is still in business and i have emailed them in hopes of finding some info in there archives regarding this what I believe is a 230/352B e new discovery.

[EagleRJO]

On 5/2/2023 at 9:15 AM, Ernest Nichols said:

I believe is a 230/352B e new discovery

Very difficult to have something new attributed with NGC, and there are issues with the appearance of the token.  Also, even the appearance aside, you would think one of that type with a silver color if legit would have been submitted by now to either NGC or PCGS which has not been done.

Why even torture yourself and submit it again.  You could just put it in your own after-market NGC holder (example attached) and label it yourself as "(1861-65) Civil War F-230/352B Our Country Token" without any metal designation, and maybe note no others with silver color certified.

Edited May 4, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/2/2023 at 10:02 AM, EagleRJO said:

Very difficult to have something new attributed with NGC, and unless it's a one-off you would think one would have been submitted by now to either NGC or PCGS which has not been done.

Why even torture yourself and submit it again.  You could just have XRF testing done and put it in your own after-market NGC holder (example attached) and label it yourself as "(1861-65) Civil War F-230/352Be Our Country Token" assuming the XRF reveals white metal or pewter for the "e" metal designation.  You could also skip the testing and just label it as F-230/352B.

The same thought would apply to a fake or counterfeit…. Why only a one off, why haven’t we seen more? Ill tell you why…. Because there were only so many struck. I don't think my Uncle would lie to me regarding this token and where it came from. I will not stop until i get to the truth and someone out there knows the entirety of the story. I do not give up very easily my friend 

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/2/2023 at 12:14 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

The same thought would apply to a fake or counterfeit…. Why only a one off, why haven’t we seen more? Ill tell you why…. Because there were only so many struck. I don't think my Uncle would lie to me regarding this token and where it came from. I will not stop until i get to the truth and someone out there knows the entirety of the story. I do not give up very easily my friend 

And furthermore, i would love to hear why the people at NGC believe this token is not genuine. There is no visible evidence that would suggest that it is. I have seen fakes and it is especially evident around the rim and edges unlike mine. Just because its not in a book doesn't mean it should be. How on earth did the other tokens make it into the books? Because of new discoveries…. It is how the world evolved!

[Sandon]

   I was concerned about the authenticity of this token since I first saw it and photos of authenticated examples of pieces in other metals of the same design.  It has a grainy yet shiny surface and weak details suggesting that it was cast rather than struck. As I'm not an expert on Civil War tokens and the OP had already submitted it to NGC, I didn't express my concerns.

   I recall that when I visited Civil War battlefields as a child during the 1960s and early 1970s, souvenir shops sold packets of "replica" Civil War tokens and Confederate "coins" that looked like this.  As this was before the enactment of the Hobby Protection Act (late 1973), it wasn't necessary for the makers to mark them "COPY". I don't know what @Ernest Nichols's uncle told him about this piece, but it may have originated in the 1960s rather than the 1860s.  It is up to him whether to make further efforts to authenticate it, with the knowledge that he may be throwing good money after bad.

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/2/2023 at 12:42 PM, Sandon said:

   I was concerned about the authenticity of this token since I first saw it and photos of authenticated examples of pieces in other metals of the same design.  It has a grainy yet shiny surface and weak details suggesting that it was cast rather than struck. As I'm not an expert on Civil War tokens and the OP had already submitted it to NGC, I didn't express my concerns.

   I recall that when I visited Civil War battlefields as a child during the 1960s and early 1970s, souvenir shops sold packets of "replica" Civil War tokens and Confederate "coins" that looked like this.  As this was before the enactment of the Hobby Protection Act (late 1973), it wasn't necessary for the makers to mark them "COPY". I don't know what @Ernest Nichols's uncle told him about this piece, but it may have originated in the 1960s rather than the 1860s.  It is up to him whether to make further efforts to authenticate it, with the knowledge that he may be throwing good money after bad.

And if it was from a souvenir shop … why would it be duplicated in a white metal or pewter. When all they knew was Copper or Brass, now I realize a souvenir would not be either but something of the sort. I will find a local coin dealer here in Phoenix with an XRF and find out what the exact metal composition is. What i know from Scottdale coin shop in Scottsdale Az is that Gold, Silver, copper and Brass have been tested negative. I have emailed UCONN libraries to see if maybe they can help me by possibly getting into Scovill manu.  archives.

[EagleRJO]

I do agree with Sandon that the token does look off, and the thing that rubs me the wrong way is the grainy surface and mushy appearance.

I don't think anyone is questioning your uncle or saying he lied to you about the token.  It could be that he was not aware it may not be legit either.  I mean who knows what happened between the mid 1800's and today.  You can only go by how the coin presently appears.

Edited May 4, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/2/2023 at 1:46 PM, EagleRJO said:

I do agree with Sandon that the token does look off, and the thing that rubs me the wrong way is the grainy surface appearance.

I don't think anyone is questioning your uncle or saying he lied to you about the token.  It may be that he was not aware it may not be legit either.  I mean who knows what happened between the mid 1800's and today.  You can only go by how the coin presently appears.

I wasn’t suggesting anyone was calling him a lier. I wonder if this same souvenir shop is open to this day? This may be another way to find out! 
and i do appreciate all of your comments and thoughts. 

[Ernest Nichols]

Notice the outer rim is not filed. If you can tell anyway. I will get some better pictures when it returns to me from NGC. 

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/2/2023 at 2:06 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

Notice the outer rim is not filed. If you can tell anyway. I will get some better pictures when it returns to me from NGC. 

The feel is sharp and it does have a dull ting to it

[Ernest Nichols]

[J P M]

I am sorry it was not determined to be a real example. From the last two photo's it looks to have a cast seam on the edge of the coin

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/2/2023 at 2:39 PM, J P M said:

I am sorry it was not determined to be a real example. From the last two photo's it looks to have a cast seam on the edge of the coin

I believe what you looking at is a reflection from the clear plastic on the flip. There are no seems

[Newenglandrarities]

Hi Ernest,

 

I posted after reading about your coin “across the street” but I would like to respond here as well.  This is a very modern copy that is completely wrong and will not grade as genuine with any grading service.  I want you to keep your enthusiasm for Civil War tokens and this coin is a very well known modern fake.  It was made within the last 10-15 years, I have seen dozens of this exact type.  Please do not waste your money sending this back as you will receive the same opinion,  

I am and have been a dealer in Exonumia and CWTs for over 20 years, I see many things wrong with this coin, I’m sorry to say, it’s not even close to being a real coin.  I know you believe it is a new discovery, but everything about it is wrong, and I am just trying to help.  Save yourself the money and just chalk this up to tuition.  Collecting CWTs or any other token is a great and exciting area of collecting.  I have seen hundreds of the fake that you have presented here.  I know you were told by a dealer the metal content, and that seems like we are all crazy, but you can buy you exact token for 10 cents overseas all day long.  The reason it looks the way it does, is we do not let the “fakers” know what is wrong with these coins, but there are 6+ obvious problems with your “coin”

i am no way trying to insult you or trying to make you feel bad.  I would be happy to talk with you about how fun and enjoyable collecting tokens can be.  Unfortunately, this coin is a very modern reproduction, and honestly, a very bad reproduction that would not fool many who collect these great historical items.  This particular die pairing is available for less than 10 cents from overseas markets.  
 

i am happy to help more if you would like to respond.  I have a feeling you will argue with what I am saying, but I am just trying to save you time and money. 

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/2/2023 at 3:05 PM, Newenglandrarities said:

Hi Ernest,

 

I posted after reading about your coin “across the street” but I would like to respond here as well.  This is a very modern copy that is completely wrong and will not grade as genuine with any grading service.  I want you to keep your enthusiasm for Civil War tokens and this coin is a very well known modern fake.  It was made within the last 10-15 years, I have seen dozens of this exact type.  Please do not waste your money sending this back as you will receive the same opinion,  

I am and have been a dealer in Exonumia and CWTs for over 20 years, I see many things wrong with this coin, I’m sorry to say, it’s not even close to being a real coin.  I know you believe it is a new discovery, but everything about it is wrong, and I am just trying to help.  Save yourself the money and just chalk this up to tuition.  Collecting CWTs or any other token is a great and exciting area of collecting.  I have seen hundreds of the fake that you have presented here.  I know you were told by a dealer the metal content, and that seems like we are all crazy, but you can buy you exact token for 10 cents overseas all day long.  The reason it looks the way it does, is we do not let the “fakers” know what is wrong with these coins, but there are 6+ obvious problems with your “coin”

i am no way trying to insult you or trying to make you feel bad.  I would be happy to talk with you about how fun and enjoyable collecting tokens can be.  Unfortunately, this coin is a very modern reproduction, and honestly, a very bad reproduction that would not fool many who collect these great historical items.  This particular die pairing is available for less than 10 cents from overseas markets.  
 

i am happy to help more if you would like to respond.  I have a feeling you will argue with what I am saying, but I am just trying to save you time and money. 

No no, your opinion is much appreciated… can you show me the six different things that are wrong with this token and perhaps some sites where you have seen this token?

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/2/2023 at 3:11 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

No no, your opinion is much appreciated… can you show me the six different things that are wrong with this token and perhaps some sites where you have seen this token?

Show and tell as best as possible that is.

[Newenglandrarities]

I cannot do that here on the forum, as counterfeiters have “trolled” the coin forums to know what is wrong with their modern fakes, and have improved many to fool a lot of smart people.  However, the surface and strike is very wrong, I would guess the weight and the base metal is completely off, though I will not say what it should be.  
 

again, I am trying to help.  I know you feel you need answers.  Your coin is not even questionable from an authentic point, it’s really one of the first attempts of an “ overseas” fake and it is really obviously not right.  I could probably find multiple websites that sell your exact coin, and I know who the maker is of it, for less than 10 cents per coin. 
 

I am very sorry for this news, the “other forum” has posted images of many far better counterfeits of this exact same coin as fakes that are very well documented and written up in many journals.  I know this sucks for you, I honestly am trying to help.  

[Newenglandrarities]

Check out alibaba website.  You will find your coin there……