ASE Newbie Question 1 1

[VKurtB]

On 7/21/2023 at 6:56 PM, Tony Follis said:

I view coin collecting as more of game than a hobby. If you really think about it you'll understand what I mean.

Oh I do. But that doesn't impress me. Coins are a "time sink" and a "money sink" at the same time. But if you approach it WITHOUT thinking of it as an asset to appreciate, only THEN can you ever understand it. It. Is. An. Expenditure. Period. Forget making money with it. Nearly nobody does. And literally NOBODY has EVER made anything concentrating on MS70 Silver Eagles.

Look, I'll even tell you WHY graded Silver Eagles are a loser. All margins are eaten away by the middle men. What you pay a premium for, is WORTHLESS when you go to sell. All you'll get is raw bullion value.

Edited July 22, 2023 by VKurtB

[Reno Raines]

On 7/21/2023 at 8:00 PM, VKurtB said:

Oh I do. But that doesn't impress me. Coins are a "time sink" and a "money sink" at the same time. But if you approach it WITHOUT thinking of it as an asset to appreciate, only THEN can you ever understand it. It. Is. An. Expenditure. Period. Forget making money with it. Nearly nobody does.

I only buy coins that I like. It's no different than when I buy a work of art by an old master. The oldest piece I own is by Pierre August -Renoir titled "Still life with roses 2"which was painted around 1907.

[VKurtB]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:04 PM, Tony Follis said:

I only buy coins that I like. It's no different than when I buy a work of art by an old master. The oldest piece I own is by Pierre August -Renoir titled "Still life with roses 2"which was painted around 1907.

Great! So why then are you looking at modern coins? Why not some struggling artist and a painting done last week?

[VKurtB]

You can't beat the buy/sell spread in coins. It's obscenely high. And they don't even QUALIFY for capital gains tax rates. It's all ordinary income, in the EXTREMELY unlikely event you do have a gain (which usually takes multiple decades).

Edited July 22, 2023 by VKurtB

[Reno Raines]

On 7/21/2023 at 8:06 PM, VKurtB said:

Great! So why then are you looking at modern coins? Why not some struggling artist and a painting done last week?

I do own a NGC MS64 1923 Peace Dollar. I only collect fine works of art by old masters as I don't like modern works of art.

[VKurtB]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:09 PM, Tony Follis said:

I do own a NGC MS64 1923 Peace Dollar. I only collect fine works of art by old masters as I don't like modern works of art.

Nice-ish. coin. MS64 is NOT tough for 1923, or 22, or 24. But 26,27,28? Now you're talking.

[Reno Raines]

On 7/21/2023 at 8:11 PM, VKurtB said:

Nice-ish. coin. MS64 is NOT tough for 1923, or 22, or 24. But 26,27,28? Now you're talking.

I plan on doing a whole Peace Dollar set in that grade.

[VKurtB]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:12 PM, Tony Follis said:

I plan on doing a whole Peace Dollar set in that grade.

That's not an inconsiderable task. It's a 95/5 proposition. 95% of the toughness comes from 5% of the coins. Key dates are soooo huge a barrier. I have no problem getting MOST of them in MS65, but the last few are extremely scarce.

Edited July 22, 2023 by VKurtB

[Reno Raines]

On 7/21/2023 at 8:14 PM, VKurtB said:

That's not an inconsiderable task. It's a 95/5 proposition. 95% of the toughness comes from 5% of the coins. Key dates are soooo huge a barrier.

I can find all the key dates ungraded for a reasonable price then at a later time get them graded.

[VKurtB]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:19 PM, Tony Follis said:

I can find all the key dates ungraded for a reasonable price then at a later time get them graded.

Yeah, that's my "game" too. The trick is to know what they'll grade before they are submitted. Equal parts art and science. And it involves studying as many already graded ones as humanly possible. Not photos. Coins. Grading MS coins is not the same as circulated coins. The 58-70 range is NOT straightforward from a book. Four or more factors intertwine, despite what the "numismatist of the Year" believes.

Edited July 22, 2023 by VKurtB

[Sandon]

On 7/21/2023 at 8:12 PM, Tony Follis said:

I plan on doing a whole Peace Dollar set in that grade. [MS 64]

On 7/21/2023 at 8:19 PM, Tony Follis said:

I can find all the key dates ungraded for a reasonable price then at a later time get them graded.

@Tony Follis--Unlike modern collectors' issues that are specially handled, come in a narrow, high grade range and generally aren't worth third-party grading, coins made for circulation such as Peace dollars come in a wide range of grades and differ widely in appearance (surface abrasions, strike, toning) even when awarded the same grade.  Many have been "cleaned" or damaged in ways that might not be noticeable to the relatively untrained eye.  Some key dates have been deceptively counterfeited or have altered dates (1923 made to resemble 1928) or added mint marks (fake "S" added to 1934).  Even if you took the time to gain adequate knowledge of authentication and grading, it is extremely unlikely that each of the coins you would buy uncertified would grade exactly MS 64, as grading is highly subjective and even experts (including grading service graders) often disagree by a grade or so. See Jeff Garrett: The Art of Rare Coin Submissions | NGC (ngccoin.com) for a highly experienced dealer's perspective.

   As a new collector, you should buy the scarcer dates in certified holders, especially if you want them in uncirculated grades. Depending on your budget, you might have to settle for lower uncirculated grades on some dates and for an XF or AU for the 1934-S, which the NGC Price Guide lists at $7,000 in MS 64 and $2,850 in (usually ugly) MS 60. (Some guides have higher prices.)  You might want to buy a common date (1922-25-"P") graded MS 65, as these can be obtained for $150 or so.  You should decide whether you find each coin you buy appealing to your own eye and not merely rely on the number on the grading service label.

    While I agree that coins are not an investment, they are assets and can appreciate over time, provided that you make informed decisions about what to buy and what is or is not worthy of third-party grading.  While I doubt that collectors are likely to profit buying modern collector and bullion issues such as ASEs in grading service holders, today's posts on the following topic show that certain people do make money from submitting such coins to grading services, but only so long as unknowledgeable collectors are willing to pay inflated prices for them: