Chinese coin 0

[ShakenBake81]

Should i only send in 1 coin to make sure its real or send them all. 2 booklets of these silver coins

[Mr.Bill347]

They sure look very real to me with real silver luster and toning. Wish I knew what they were. I would find out what they are, what they are worth and if they are real before making your decision. A legitimate ANA dealer could tell you or perhaps some of the world collectors on the forum. Are they large coins. If real, they could be very valuable from the Ching Dynasty sometimes called the Double dragon.

good luck and let us know. Love this stuff!

[ShakenBake81]

The 2 booklets come with large and medium and small coins. All with crazy toning. Ive looked up prices and that is why im asking if real. The amounts I saw online were large, mind you they were graded. These booklets also have nice weight to them making me also believe in some authenticity. There is also a bunch of double dragon coins. I also love this old history stuff. But these coins are so mesmerizing,  I stare at them so much. I will definitely let you know if I hear anything.  I will post more pics on this thread also. Thanks for your input

[Sandon]

   I'm no expert on Chinese coins, but I understand that it is legal in China to manufacture replicas (fakes) of Chinese coins issued before 1949, as well as coins of other countries from any times.  Vast numbers of such replicas have been manufactured in and exported from China. It is likely that your coins are such replicas. Their lack of toning despite being stored in a cardboard holder and the "greasy" appearance of their luster strongly suggests to me that they are of recent origin.

   You should try to find someone with expertise in Chinese coins, such as a world coin dealer at a larger coin show, to evaluate these pieces before wasting money by sending them to a grading service. It also might be helpful to obtain a translation of the words printed on the holder.  You might also want to try to identify these coins on the NGC World Coin Price Guide and check their weight on a digital scale against the weight stated in the price guide.  (Go to the "Resources" tab on the NGC home page and "Price Guides".)

[ShakenBake81]

I downloaded a picture translator and took a picture. These are the results.  Im sure there is more to the translation but this is what it picked up. If you cant zoom in and read it, I can post separate pics. 

Thanks for the input.

[Sandon]

   I had hoped that the translation would shed some light on whether the coins are genuine or replicas.  It apparently does.  All of the translations contain the word "cast", and two of them say that the coins are a "fan edition". I believe that the genuine coins of that era would have been struck, not cast. I also note that each piece looks exactly like the others. 

[ShakenBake81]

Interesting point. You say all the writing on the coins are the same but if you look close they are all different.  Im going to get them looked at by a local asa dealer. Keep you updated. 

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by ShakenBake81

[EagleRJO]

If you could provide the diameter and thickness to 0.1mm and the weight to 0.01g for a few representative coins along with pics of both sides for those weighed coins that would be helpful.

[ShakenBake81]

Will do when im home from work. I did take 3 random coins out last night, looked them up on Numista website for weight. All 3 coins were within .03 - .05 grams, I'm guessing accuracy of scale. Will provide that info tonight. Did not check thickness nor diameter.  Will do tonight and post pics. 

[EagleRJO]

Here is the info I dug up that I think is for your coins including weight and measurements ... https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces274919.html

Take a look and see if that matches.  Unfortunately it seems like replicas and restrikes of these coins are prolific.  Most have a different composition and diffent physical properties and some are modern silver  restrikes ... 

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia55225.html

https://www.apmex.com/product/240641/2021-china-1-oz-antique-silver-kwang-tung-dollar-restrike

Accordingly, taking measurements would only be an indicator.

Edited March 18, 2023 by EagleRJO

[ShakenBake81]

Hey thanks for that.  Ive been on Numista for hours lol. Im making a chart of Numista info and then my  info to the nearest .01 for about 3-4 coins. Ive also notices the defects in the replicas online and mine so far are the Genuine quality..... no blobs , nice lines, reeded edges, dragons have spikes not blobby lines. Letters match to the online Genuine ones both Chinese and English. So far the weight is off by only .03-.05grams. They are non magnetic. Some of the smaller ones have the craziest rainbow toning. Looks to be in a MS condition. The artwork on these coins is absolutely stunning. Ill keep you posted on my chart im doing for some coins. 

[ShakenBake81]

Here is what i charted on 4 coins. I used a digital caliper and scale. I just don't know silver content as i don't own a Sigma tester. I guess thats where a dealer comes in. Hope these results lead to a more genuine coin than a replica or fake. 

[EagleRJO]

On 3/17/2023 at 10:17 PM, ShakenBake81 said:

Here is what i charted on 4 coins. I used a digital caliper and scale. I just don't know silver content as i don't own a Sigma tester. I guess thats where a dealer comes in. Hope these results lead to a more genuine coin than a replica or fake. 

The numbers look good, within around 10% or so, except the 3 Mace 6 Candareens which has a thickness that is way off.  Likely indicates a cast replica or counterfeit which are typically thicker due to the lighter materials to get the same weight.

Very organized data recording. I'm assuming you have a scientific background.

Edited April 2, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Greenstang]

Quote

I don’t own a Sigma tester

You could always do a tissue test to see if there is any silver in them.

[Sandon]

    From my standpoint, the problem with this topic is that the original poster and those attempting to advise him have never seen examples of these issues whose authenticity has been established.  In my experience, one gets a "feel" for whether or not a coin is genuine by having examined and becoming familiar with the characteristics of genuine examples of the type and issue.  You can do all the weighing, measuring and testing you want, but it will not give you a definitive answer. You simply need to show these pieces to someone who is familiar with what the real ones look like.

    Has anyone attempted to determine the market value of these coins if genuine? If they are common and inexpensive, it doesn't much matter whether or not they are genuine.  If they are rare and valuable, it certainly does matter.  Counterfeiters of valuable coins who intend to pass their products off as genuine are likely to make sure that they match the issue's original specifications.

[EagleRJO]

I take measurements of all raw coins as a matter of course.  The next step I take is to compare them very carefully to certified genuine examples.

I think that is the best a collector can do until they develop a "feel" for if a coin is genuine which could take decades.

[ShakenBake81]

On 3/18/2023 at 11:59 AM, EagleRJO said:

I take measurements of all raw coins as a matter of course.  The next step I take is to compare them very carefully to certified genuine examples.

I think that is the best a collector can do until they develop a "feel" for if a coin is genuine which could take decades.

From what ive researched it is important to take measurements as most fakes and replicas are off from Genuine coins. Even the best ones still have big flaws from original coins. Especially for these particular ones.  Like i said, im going to have them looked at by an Asa dealer

[EagleRJO]

Sometimes counterfeits are made by private entities with the intent that they be put into circulation due to a lack of coins in a region.  So they are made with the same materials, weights and dimensions.

An example of these "circulation counterfeits" I am familiar with is the Spanish 8 Reales, which were prolific throught Asia for use in trade due to a lack of coins in the late 1800's to early 1900's.

While I am not familiar with the Yuan coins, I suspect and it does appear that there are similar issues with them having circulation counterfeits where just checking physical properties becomes inconclusive. It then becomes necessary to compare the coins with certified genuine examples in order to tell if they are legit.

Edited March 19, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

   I don't know what an "Asa dealer" is.  Do you mean a dealer who is a member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA)?  Anyone can join the ANA.  What is important here is that the dealer is familiar with these coins.  If he has examples in stock, especially certified ones, you would do well to compare them to yours.  

  I look forward to learning about whatever professional opinions you obtain.
 

[J P M]

On 3/18/2023 at 6:46 PM, Sandon said:

   I don't know what an "Asa dealer" is.  Do you mean a dealer who is a member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA)?  Anyone can join the ANA.  What is important here is that the dealer is familiar with these coins.  If he has examples in stock, especially certified ones, you would do well to compare them to yours.  

  I look forward to learning about whatever professional opinions you obtain.
 

I want to add not all dealers are knowledgeable or seasoned collectors some are shopkeepers and salesmen. Don't be in a rush to take the first advice or offer.

[ShakenBake81]

On 3/18/2023 at 3:46 PM, Sandon said:

   I don't know what an "Asa dealer" is.  Do you mean a dealer who is a member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA)?  Anyone can join the ANA.  What is important here is that the dealer is familiar with these coins.  If he has examples in stock, especially certified ones, you would do well to compare them to yours.  

  I look forward to learning about whatever professional opinions you obtain.
 

Sorry yes I meant ANA auto correct i didnt catch. Ive seen 1 shop that had some smaller denomination in stock. Was gonna go there and compare. I will definitely let everyone know whether these are real or fake. Might just send 1 coin out to get authenticated if i cant get any answers. 

[ShakenBake81]

Update on coins.......

They are real coins.  Ive been in talks with Stack's Bowers Galleries and they will be in the upcoming HongKong Auction in October.  All coins will be graded before Auction.  Life changing experience.  

[Greenstang]

Congratulations then, hope you do well at the auction.

[EagleRJO]

On 4/2/2023 at 12:35 PM, ShakenBake81 said:

Update on coins ....... They are real coins.

Glad to hear that it looks like they are legit with the coins being included in an upcoming SB auction.

What about the 3 Mace 6 Candareens which was the only really questionable one with a thickness that was way off at 2.09mm vs the 1.50mm spec?

[ShakenBake81]

On 4/2/2023 at 1:00 PM, EagleRJO said:

Glad to hear that it looks like they are legit with the coins being included in an upcoming SB auction.

What about the 3 Mace 6 Candareens which was the only really questionable one with a thickness that was way off at 2.09mm vs the 1.50mm spec?

I was reading online that you cant rely on that because of how many were made and how many mints produced them per province. Also the Chinese characters on the coins will provide proof of fakes as they dont translate properly.  I will be informed of all grading done wich will also authenticate the coins. 54 coins total in both books. So far ive heard nothing but good news. I will keep you informed of grading once I hear.  

[Just Bob]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:35 AM, ShakenBake81 said:

Update on coins.......

They are real coins.  Ive been in talks with Stack's Bowers Galleries and they will be in the upcoming HongKong Auction in October.  All coins will be graded before Auction.  Life changing experience.  

Please post a link to the auction. I love a good success story, and I want to follow these coins and see how they do.

[ShakenBake81]

On 4/2/2023 at 6:11 PM, Just Bob said:

Please post a link to the auction. I love a good success story, and I want to follow these coins and see how they do.

The Auction isint till October but I will definitely post a link. I believe you can still follow them prebidding on Stacks website wich should be mid September.  But yes ill keep you informed 🍻