1851 seated liberty 0

[peterson3223]

can someone help with this? I can't seem to find this anywhere with a "o" mint mark and I can't find any fakes or mentions of a 1851 dollar. I've seen half dollars and quarters.

[Greenstang]

Welcome to the Forum.

That is a counterfeit. The only 1851O minted was one Proof Strike and that is not a Proof.

Did you check the weight to see if it is even silver?

Edited January 22, 2023 by Greenstang

[peterson3223]

I tried a magnet didnt stick. then weighed it and it was 26.48 grams. I'm not 100 percent how accurate the scale was I just bought it at the gas station haha 

Edited January 22, 2023 by peterson3223

[Greenstang]

The weight seems to be not too far off, should be 26.73g

[peterson3223]

I've been searching for fakes and I can't find any. I've found a lot of half dollars with the o 1851 

[Sandon]

   Your "coin" is a crude replica or "fantasy piece" of an "1851-O" Seated dollar, which doesn't really exist. It is likely of recent Chinese origin.  It differs markedly in appearance (grainy and "off" color) and in fine design details from either an "original" (high date) or "restrike" proof (centered date) 1851 Seated dollar, either of which is quite rare, or for that matter from any genuine Liberty Seated dollar. As I recall, one of the restrikes appears to have been struck over a previously struck 1859-O or 1860-O Seated dollar, with a trace of the "O" mint mark visible from the previously struck coin, not a bold "O" like this! (All of the restrikes were apparently made at the Philadelphia mint, perhaps as late as the 1870s.)

 In the future, you may wish to compare pieces like this to photos of genuine pieces on the NGC Coin Explorer (from NGC home page, under the "Resources" tab) or PCGS Coinfacts (www.pcgscoinfacts.com).  Here is the NGC Coin Explorer's photo of an 1851 "original".  Photos of the proof restrike can be found on "Coinfacts".

 

 

[Coinbuf]

Welcome to the forum, as the fellows have said this appears to be a replica or counterfeit of some type.   Besides the fact that no seated dollars were minted in NOLA for circulation in 1851, many areas of the coin look "off" compared to an original 1851 coin.

[peterson3223]

yhank you

[RWB]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:36 AM, Sandon said:

 Your "coin" is a crude replica or "fantasy piece" of an "1851-O" Seated dollar, which doesn't really exist.

Actually, it is a counterfeit and should be destroyed and the perpetrators, importer, sellers, etc. should be prosecuted.

Let's cease the "niceties" and call this modern trash by its correct name: Counterfeit.

[Sandon]

@RWB--I view the terms "replica" and "fantasy piece" to mean something of a lower order than a counterfeit.  A counterfeit, to me, is a coin or note that is intended to deceive collectors or to pass as money. The most common Liberty Seated dollar issues now retail for at least $300 in slick "Good" condition. Anyone who collects coins as valuable as Liberty Seated dollars are in all grades needs to be aware of what date and mint combinations actually exist, as well as have some idea what they're supposed to look like. It's not hard to acquire a "Redbook" or current price guide to do the former or to find photos in books or online resources to do the latter. Anyone who paid a lot of money for the originally posted item would get what he deserved.

   I would be more concerned about the more deceptive pieces that are coming out of Asia--or wherever--that are modeled from genuine coins or their images and have been mistaken by even relatively experienced collectors for genuine coins.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Sandon

[EagleRJO]

On 1/22/2023 at 4:54 PM, Sandon said:

I would be more concerned about the more deceptive pieces that are coming out of Asia--or wherever--that are modeled from genuine coins or their images and have been mistaken by even relatively experienced collectors for genuine coins.

I second that. There are some very insidious counterfeits being passed off as legit collector coins.

[lcourtney123]

This is a good subject for me. I am also new and wondering this. If you are in doubt should you send them in for grading to confirm authenticity?

People do have replicas of all sorts of things that are beautiful. However if your 100% sure its a replica it should be labeled as that in your own personal replica collection. Never attempt to sell it as authentic.

Keep it real !

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by lcourtney123

[J P M]

I think you will be charged all the fee's for the grading and it will not be put in a slab and labeled. It is fake 

On 1/23/2023 at 12:04 AM, lcourtney123 said:

This is a good subject for me. I am also new and wondering this. If you are in doubt should you send them in for grading to confirm authenticity?

People do have replicas of all sorts of things that are beautiful. However if your 100% sure its a replica it should be labeled as that in your own personal replica collection. Never attempt to sell it as authentic.

Keep it real !

 

 

[Greenstang]

If you are in doubt about the authenticity of a coin, post a clear photo of both sides along with the weight to two decimal points on this forum and there should be someone here who can help. Don’t pay to send it to a TPG unless you are sure it is worth it.

[RWB]

On 1/22/2023 at 4:54 PM, Sandon said:

I view the terms "replica" and "fantasy piece" to mean something of a lower order than a counterfeit.

And to me, that "weedle" interpretation is a large part of the modern counterfeiting problem. A crook makes (or imports) something that looks like a coin or acts like a coin. They label it "Replica" accompanied with all the implied innocence and try to convince others that it is OK; while raking in the cash from selling counterfeit coins.

Anything that looks or acts like a coin is a counterfeit. Production is itself intent to defraud. Modern law allows a generous exception by adding the word COPY to the item.

[Sandon]

  So that this thread doesn't arguably end off topic, here is a link to a page on PCGS Coinfacts with a photo of and discussion about the unique 1851 dated Proof "Restrike" Seated dollar with a faint "O" mint mark. It looks nothing like the original poster's "coin".  

1851 $1 Restrike Over O Mint (Proof) Liberty Seated Dollar - PCGS CoinFacts

Edited January 23, 2023 by Sandon

[VKurtB]

On 1/23/2023 at 7:44 AM, RWB said:

And to me, that "weedle" interpretation is a large part of the modern counterfeiting problem. A crook makes (or imports) something that looks like a coin or acts like a coin. They label it "Replica" accompanied with all the implied innocence and try to convince others that it is OK; while raking in the cash from selling counterfeit coins.

Anything that looks or acts like a coin is a counterfeit. Production is itself intent to defraud. Modern law allows a generous exception by adding the word COPY to the item.

What constitutes “acts like a coin”? Mine pretty much just lie there unless acted upon by a force. It’s all very Newtonian. 

[ldhair]

In my opinion, copies, replicas, fantasy coins or anything made to look like the real thing, is a counterfeit. 

What gets me is that a person can't post that opinion without getting in a fight and being hammered with insults. 

Most of the insults come from those that have an investment in these type of coins. 

Many important people in this hobby will not even discuss the topic. They want no part in the fights because nothing good will come from it.

[VKurtB]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:57 AM, ldhair said:

In my opinion, copies, replicas, fantasy coins or anything made to look like the real thing, is a counterfeit. 

What gets me is that a person can't post that opinion without getting in a fight and being hammered with insults. 

Most of the insults come from those that have an investment in these type of coins. 

Many important people in this hobby will not even discuss the topic. They want no part in the fights because nothing good will come from it.

Yet you STILL can’t resist, can you? Typical. 

[lcourtney123]

On 1/22/2023 at 10:57 PM, EagleRJO said:

I second that. There are some very insidious counterfeits being passed off as legit collector coins.

I was watching a presentation from Mr. Gillis and they showed coins from like 1800-1860 and pointed out how they were altered. So, I definitely know why they say know your series. There is no way someone like me would catch anything like these coins they were just that good at the deception. I am all over the place right now with all types of coins just for the training of it. I really like Morgan, Ikes, & Kennedy half dollars. I have many. I get some rolls (Federal Rolls Only) just to learn and found a no FG 50cent piece a few days ago. I know they are real! However, I don't where that coin has been or who has possibly altered it ?

[lcourtney123]

I really thought about the replica coin subject, it makes sense, why would someone want a replica coin. So, I retract my statement about all replicas being pretty. Seems there may be deception in the initial reasoning. Maybe not all but some.

On 1/24/2023 at 6:57 AM, ldhair said:

In my opinion, copies, replicas, fantasy coins or anything made to look like the real thing, is a counterfeit. 

What gets me is that a person can't post that opinion without getting in a fight and being hammered with insults. 

Most of the insults come from those that have an investment in these type of coins. 

Many important people in this hobby will not even discuss the topic. They want no part in the fights because nothing good will come from it.

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by lcourtney123
completed my thought

[EagleRJO]

I think part of the issue with discussing say counterfeits versus fantasy coins is a lack of clarification within the regulations and court interpretations.

For example, at what point is there an "intent to defraud", and how is that established. And then the grandaddy ... would fool the average collector. Perhaps the latter could be tied to what is currently in the Red Book, a widely referenced and accepted resource in the industry.

[EagleRJO]

On 1/27/2023 at 12:55 AM, EagleRJO said:

I think part of the issue with discussing say counterfeits versus fantasy coins is a lack of clarification within the regulations and court interpretations.

For example, at what point is there an "intent to defraud", and how is that established. And then the grandaddy ... would fool the average collector. Perhaps the latter could be tied to what is currently in the Red Book, a widely referenced and accepted resource in the industry.

Meaning, if a coin isn't in the Red Book that should be a flag to the average collector it may not be legit and requires further research.