Star designated proofs 1 1

[Mr.blister]

Proof star designated coins provides the collector with the best of both worlds e.g. cameo finish or a mirror finish or Ultra cameo combination's . The uniqueness of having two varied proof finishes on one coin is rare and indicative of lower populations. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Mr.blister

[RWB]

Bologna.

[Coinbuf]

On 12/21/2022 at 10:18 PM, Mr.blister said:

Proof star designated coins provides the collector with the best of both worlds e.g. cameo finish or a mirror finish or Ultra cameo combination's . The uniqueness of having two varied proof finishes on one coin is rare and indicative of lower populations. 

I have no clue what you are trying to say here.

[Sandon]

   The "star" grade, which is only used by NGC and is not part of the ANA grading system, when used on proofs, appears to be applied to coins that are one-sided cameos (or deep cameos), as there isn't enough room on the little paper grading service tag to say that the coin is a "deep cameo obverse, brilliant reverse", or the like.  The original poster suggests that a one-sided cameo (or deep cameo) is better than a two-sided cameo or deep cameo.  Assuming, as most collectors do, that a cameo is better than a non-cameo and that a deep cameo is better than a cameo, this position is illogical. For that matter, so is the fad of "low ball" collecting in which some collectors compete to own the most worn coin possible!

  Collect what you want, but just because it's unusual or "low population" in a certified holder doesn't mean it's really desirable or that most collectors will accept it as such.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/22/2022 at 9:59 PM, Sandon said:

   The "star" grade, which is only used by NGC and is not part of the ANA grading system, when used on proofs, appears to be applied to coins that are one-sided cameos (or deep cameos), as there isn't enough room on the little paper grading service tag to say that the coin is a "deep cameo obverse, brilliant reverse", or the like.  The original poster suggests that a one-sided cameo (or deep cameo) is better than a two-sided cameo or deep cameo.  Assuming, as most collectors do, that a cameo is better than a non-cameo and that a deep cameo is better than a cameo, this position is illogical. For that matter, so is the fad of "low ball" collecting in which some collectors compete to own the most worn coin possible! Collect what you want, but just because it's unusual or "low population" in a certified holder doesn't mean it's really desirable or that most collectors will accept it as such.

Seems like the star grade means exceptional eye appeal or the like, no ?

[“”]

The 1965, 1966 and 1967 SMS quarters and halves were very popular for receiving the star designation.

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Simple Collector

[Mr.blister]

Bologna= Oscar Meyers! Or petulance?

No comprende = don't understand.

Yes, star graded coins = exceptional eye appeal or one side with cameo or ultra cameo contrast/devices. 

I'm referring to mirror proofs with a star designation. One side is a mirror proof which I visually like and the other side  frosty  devices thus two distinct finishes! 

Very simple! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FlyingAl]

On 12/23/2022 at 9:33 AM, Mr.blister said:

Bologna= Oscar Meyers! Or petulance?

No comprende = don't understand.

Yes, star graded coins = exceptional eye appeal or one side with cameo or ultra cameo contrast/devices. 

I'm referring to mirror proofs with a star designation. One side is a mirror proof which I visually like and the other side  frosty  devices thus two distinct finishes! 

Very simple! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, and it is indicative of a high quality die being put with a low quality die. Maybe lower pops, but inferior coins.

[Mr.blister]

Of course, proof mirror unfrosted coins were struck with worn dies! However, indicative of being inferior I disagree as would many other collectors that collect mirrored proof coins. Mirror proofs, Cameo and ultra cameos are categorically different stages in the life of a die not the diehard.

[numisport]

On 12/22/2022 at 9:59 PM, Sandon said:

   The "star" grade, which is only used by NGC and is not part of the ANA grading system, when used on proofs, appears to be applied to coins that are one-sided cameos (or deep cameos), as there isn't enough room on the little paper grading service tag to say that the coin is a "deep cameo obverse, brilliant reverse", or the like.  The original poster suggests that a one-sided cameo (or deep cameo) is better than a two-sided cameo or deep cameo.  Assuming, as most collectors do, that a cameo is better than a non-cameo and that a deep cameo is better than a cameo, this position is illogical. For that matter, so is the fad of "low ball" collecting in which some collectors compete to own the most worn coin possible!

  Collect what you want, but just because it's unusual or "low population" in a certified holder doesn't mean it's really desirable or that most collectors will accept it as such.

Exceptional toning or color may also qualify for Star designation on proofs as well.

Edited December 23, 2022 by numisport

[zadok]

On 12/22/2022 at 9:59 PM, Sandon said:

   The "star" grade, which is only used by NGC and is not part of the ANA grading system, when used on proofs, appears to be applied to coins that are one-sided cameos (or deep cameos), as there isn't enough room on the little paper grading service tag to say that the coin is a "deep cameo obverse, brilliant reverse", or the like.  The original poster suggests that a one-sided cameo (or deep cameo) is better than a two-sided cameo or deep cameo.  Assuming, as most collectors do, that a cameo is better than a non-cameo and that a deep cameo is better than a cameo, this position is illogical. For that matter, so is the fad of "low ball" collecting in which some collectors compete to own the most worn coin possible!

  Collect what you want, but just because it's unusual or "low population" in a certified holder doesn't mean it's really desirable or that most collectors will accept it as such.

...agree bout cameo proofs, obviously the best coin is the most desirable n most logical to buy...ultra cameo both sides is the way to go...if one side is of lesser quality then the coin is less desirable, true there may be less coins with the mismatched sides but in this case scarcity does not equate to more desirable, perhaps most of those coins would/should have been considered as rejects but knowing the gov't sell anything regardless of quality...as for the "low ball" collectors, there may be a bit more to that , that u hadnt considered...while i mostly strive to obtain the finest available in coins that i collect i do indulge in the "low balls" but for a very specific reason...completing something that i wouldnt otherwise be able to complete, i.e. CC seated coinage, to complete coins from that mint during the 1870s in high grade is virtually impossible but i discovered i could mostly assemble a complete CC set of coins all denominations in the very low grades with few exceptions, n if u mismatch coins high grade low grade the collection has little eye appeal, but if all the coins appear uniform in grade its actually presentable...so i indulged, of course one has to put boundaries so as not to pay exorbitant prices for a very low grade coin or it would become illogical....

[FlyingAl]

On 12/23/2022 at 1:26 PM, Mr.blister said:

Of course, proof mirror unfrosted coins were struck with worn dies! However, indicative of being inferior I disagree as would many other collectors that collect mirrored proof coins. Mirror proofs, Cameo and ultra cameos are categorically different stages in the life of a die not the diehard.

Very few collectors will choose a mirrored proof over an Ultra Cameo if they are offered at the same price. They are simply not as attractive, rare, detailed, desirable, or better. 

[Mr.blister]

All is relative in the eye of the beholder! Certainly, if I were offered a Utra Cameo versus a mirror proof at the same price that goes without saying from a monetary standpoint.

The procrustean way is subjective, words as good, derisible, better and superior are relative to the eye of the beholder as well.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that all proof coins were struck at the USA MINT and struck at different stages. Using worn dies actually accentuated proof coins. In fact, worn dies did not distract or create inferior coins it produced brilliantly mirrored finished coins!

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Mr.blister

[FlyingAl]

On 12/23/2022 at 3:54 PM, Mr.blister said:

All is relative in the eye of the beholder! Certainly, if I were offered a Utra Cameo versus a mirror proof at the same price that goes without saying from a monetary standpoint.

The procrustean way is subjective, words as good, derisible, better and superior are relative to the eye of the beholder as well.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that all proof coins were struck at the USA MINT and struck at different stages. Using worn dies actually accentuated proof coins. In fact, worn dies did not distract or create inferior coins it produced brilliantly mirrored finished coins!

 

 

 

Which are inherently inferior to those struck from frosted and new dies. They have weaker detail. The lack of contrast makes it harder to see the design in full. 

Regardless of what you argue, no one sided cameo will ever match up to a two sided one, no matter what the label says. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/23/2022 at 4:52 PM, FlyingAl said:

Very few collectors will choose a mirrored proof over an Ultra Cameo if they are offered at the same price. They are simply not as attractive, rare, detailed, desirable, or better. 

Aren't they each common to modern bullion ?  Could I tell them apart ?

[VKurtB]

I own one starred proof Washington quarter that is clearly Ultra Cameo on one side and “regular” cameo on the other. It is Cameo WITH a star. The reverse is CLOSE to Ultra, it just is slightly off on the legends. The devices are fine. 

[VKurtB]

On 12/23/2022 at 5:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Aren't they each common to modern bullion ?  Could I tell them apart ?

On modern proofs, 69 Ultra Cameo is the absolute MINIMUM that any collector should accept as a quality coin. Even PF68UC is a bad coin. 

[FlyingAl]

On 12/23/2022 at 4:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Aren't they each common to modern bullion ?  Could I tell them apart ?

Here:

The difference should be obvious. 

[bsshog40]

Here is my only * proof. 

[Mr.blister]

Each coin has their unique qualities and a judgement or an opinion about it is subjective based on what you believe to be right. It's not about right or wrong for nothing cannot exist without the other that is fact. I never used the word argue, you did.

[Mr.blister]

[Mr.blister]

[Mr.blister]

If anyone thinks this coin or so called low-balled or inferior, I beg to differ

[Coinbuf]

On 12/23/2022 at 5:34 PM, Mr.blister said:

If anyone thinks this coin or so called low-balled or inferior, I beg to differ

 

I would call that inferior, however by your own admission beauty or inferiority is in the eye of the beholder.  As such your assertion/opinion is no more correct or right than mine, thus you may beg all you want but my opinion is correct to me as yours is to you. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Coinbuf

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/23/2022 at 7:34 PM, Mr.blister said:

If anyone thinks this coin or so called low-balled or inferior, I beg to differ

It's a nice looking coin but I'll take a CAM any day of the week as opposed to this one. If you like it, cool. 

If someone wants to assemble a PF, no cameo, set it would be a different direction to go, maybe unique. It would probably be difficult to pull off but wouldn't be on par, value wise, with a CAM set. Still, I would enjoy seeing such a set and the enjoyment a collector has in assembling it. Just don't try to tell me it's valuable when compared to CAM's. 

[Mr.blister]

On 12/23/2022 at 4:43 PM, Coinbuf said:

I would call that inferior, however by your own admission beauty or inferiority is in the eye of the beholder.  As such your assertion/opinion is no more correct or right than mine, thus you may beg all you want but my opinion is correct to me as yours is to you. 

But of course Grasshopper. You finally got the point that it really doesn't matter as long as you're content with what you do.

[RWB]

Bologna. Applies to stars, asterisks, pluses, crosses, tilde, squiggles and all the other nonsense dreamt up to confuse, obfuscate, and mislead collectors. That otherwise thoughtful people buy into this - literally - is sad.

[bsshog40]

The TPG's are the ones that decided symbols can be used in certain circumstances not collectors. Let's say you are a grader at a top tpg, you have two coins that will grade at 67. One of them just stands out as having better eye appeal than the other but details do not warrant a 68. This is where the professional grader can give an extra opinion and add a * or +. Now of course, a knowledgeable collector can also see the difference in the coins but I see nothing wrong with having that extra symbol added by the grader. Would you rather see a grade of 67 1/2 or just a little star or plus? I think fractions would confuse collectors much more than a simple symbol. And then come the stickers but I'll stop at symbols. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/24/2022 at 9:30 AM, bsshog40 said:

The TPG's are the ones that decided symbols can be used in certain circumstances not collectors. Let's say you are a grader at a top tpg, you have two coins that will grade at 67. One of them just stands out as having better eye appeal than the other but details do not warrant a 68. This is where the professional grader can give an extra opinion and add a * or +. Now of course, a knowledgeable collector can also see the difference in the coins but I see nothing wrong with having that extra symbol added by the grader. Would you rather see a grade of 67 1/2 or just a little star or plus? I think fractions would confuse collectors much more than a simple symbol. And then come the stickers but I'll stop at symbols. 

The problem is that because this is all subjective, there's a good chance if the next grade is worth alot more $$$ that the 66+ or 66* will eventually become a 67.

We've seen gradeflation without the modifiers even on coins that probably got looked at very closely, namely the MCMVII UHR Saints.

[Coinbuf]

On 12/23/2022 at 8:17 PM, Mr.blister said:

But of course Grasshopper. You finally got the point that it really doesn't matter as long as you're content with what you do.

Yes I already knew the point, the sad part is that you do not.