Sometimes, when I compare coins graded by NGC, the results appear so inconsistent ... 0

[Joseph Gregor]

I am just wondering if there have ever been any reported cases of any dishonest employees/experts over grading coins of someone they have a connection or affiliation with? 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Joseph Gregor

[VKurtB]

There have long been people who feel that way, but it strikes me as sour grapes. The longer I’ve done business with NGC, the more I believe they are unambiguously the best firm out there. 
 

Short answer to your question: NO. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/16/2022 at 1:32 AM, Joseph Gregor said:

I am just wondering if there have ever been any reported cases of any dishonest employees/experts over grading coins of someone they have a connection or affiliation with? 

First, I would think you'd be a bit more discreet given that this is an NGC Forum.  You ARE in their house, after all. 

Second, do you have an example that would prove your accusation in the OP and Thread title ?  It's a pretty serious accusation to make.

I agree more or less with Kurt.  And I would also say that while mistakes and over/under grades can take place, that does NOT imply corruption.  The systems that the TPGs employ are designed to eliminate the possibility of a rogue individual skewing results but of course no system is 100% perfect.

This hobby IMO is better with the TPGs like NGC. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[EagleRJO]

On 12/16/2022 at 1:32 AM, Joseph Gregor said:

I am just wondering if there have ever been any reported cases of any dishonest employees/experts over grading coins of someone they have a connection or affiliation with? 

I assume you have a specific example you are referring to given how strongly that is worded.  Perhaps you can share that so your post doesn't just end up coming off as baseless criticism by someone with an axe to grind.

[JT2]

I have seen many slabs in my days.  When i started collecting we didn't have them.  We got our books out and out pictures and our descriptions and we took out magnifying loops and looked at those little tiny pieces of shinny metal.  So starting in the 80's i have seen a plethora of .slabs.  some homemade and some from the first company i ever had were from ACG.   I thought they were a novelty until 15 - 20 years later and you cant even get a decent coin without them being in one.  So to answer your question yes there is over grading when you look at slabs.  that is because everyone's opinion on the grade is different.  I have seen so many slabs that the list would run off this page, however i have found that if you put 2 NGC graded coins together you will find that the grading is consistent and pretty much spot on.   where as if you take other TPG grade coins and set them side by side you would have noticeable differences in the over all apearance of the coin.  IMO

[GoldFinger1969]

OK, it looks like the Thread title and the OP have been changed by the author and now the focus is on relationship between the graders and Friends & Family. 

I would think there are controls in place such that a grader can't bring in his own coins or they have to be graded by a special committee or even submitted ATS.  It's no different than a financial firm prohibiting an employee from doing outside trades on another platform.  Or at least having to disclose it.

Some people here have worked for or knew people who worked for a TPG, they can better tell us what restrictions employees have (if any) on submissions, collecting, etc. 

[JKK]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:02 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I would think there are controls in place such that a grader can't bring in his own coins or they have to be graded by a special committee or even submitted ATS.  It's no different than a financial firm prohibiting an employee from doing outside trades on another platform.  Or at least having to disclose it.

Or even more draconian. When I worked for an investment management firm, we were categorically forbidden to trade in separate issue securities. Every quarter, we got a sheet requiring us to list our separate issue securities transactions (or check the box for 'none'). If we already owned something, we had to get permission to sell it. We were never pressured to be in the firm's funds, but we were required to be in funds of some sort if we wanted to invest in securities markets (which if we had been too stupid to do that given the proximity of very educated market wisdom, we'd be throwing away one of the major intangible benefits).

I think the primary logic was that, since we traded blocks of stock large enough to affect market pricing, we could be considered at least suspect as to insider information, and the partners didn't want even the appearance of potential risk.

[JKK]

On the subject of inconsistent grading, I think people forget that at least a healthy minority of us actually look at the coin. Even if one managed to get a coin overgraded, the issue then would be people's disgust with it and the seller. This is not a world in which TPGs are some secret superhero called Numisma-Man (faster than a speeding grumpy old dealer; more observant than a grumpy old dealer with teenagers in the store; able to assess bad cleanings in a single glance), whose decisions descend from Mt. Sinai on stone tablets. If you were trying to unload it, you'd be hoping for a dumb sucker because all the smart people would actually look at the actual coin and form their own opinions as to an actual grade.

Graders are human; some are less experienced than others; people can have bad days. But I'm pretty sure that the major problem with misgrading is not people's insider pals giving them numismatic reacharounds. I'm pretty sure it's the heavy pressure from very big guns on certain very expensive coins, combined with 'market grading' and all the many excuses people invent for 'why my coin should get a grade higher than it could possibly merit.' Watch when someone posts a coin here. We've got several people who are consistently 1-2 grades high and sometimes even worse. It's like they didn't even look at the f-booming coin.

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2022 at 2:20 AM, EagleRJO said:

I assume you have a specific example you are referring to given how strongly that is worded.  Perhaps you can share that so your post doesn't just end up coming off as baseless criticism by someone with an axe to grind.

Oops. Too late. Fait accompli. 

[VKurtB]

Graders are NEVER NEVER NEVER allowed to know whose coins they are grading, therefore what you suggest not only does not happen, it CANNOT. Of course, sometimes when a major collection comes in, graders, who are highly experienced about what they are grading, can guess. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

Here’s my alternate theory, and I believe it’s a good one. When I first started submitting coins myself to a TPGS, not this one, they didn’t take direct submissions then, I was frequently disappointed in the grades I got. Surely those guys were nuts, right? Now when I submit coins, to NGC, most of the time, not always, I am blown away by the grades I get, on the high side. Here’s the hook - the more experience I got, the better the TPGS firms got. Just like the older you get, the smarter your parents’ choices raising you get. Experience. It makes everything better. 

[Coinbuf]

On 12/15/2022 at 11:32 PM, Joseph Gregor said:

I am just wondering if there have ever been any reported cases of any dishonest employees/experts over grading coins of someone they have a connection or affiliation with? 

I know of no reported instance of the type you are inferring with your post.  Coins get resubmitted if the financial incentive is high enough, and every time a coin is graded again it is seen by a different set of graders so there is always room for variance in the grading outcome.   A personal example, I had a coin that was MS66, beautiful coin that I felt had a great shot at MS67.   I cracked and submitted the coin twice with no success, I then enlisted the help of a well-known dealer that specializes in that series to submit for me.   The first submission it came back as a 66+, on the second it received the MS67 grade it (imo) deserved.  Happy accident that he had the success that I did not, maybe, perhaps he employed a better strategy than I did.  Whatever the case it proved that at times it does matter who submits, be that because of who the submitter is or, the more likely case, how familiar the submitter is with the grading game.

Also, as with any business it is always a good idea to take care of your best customers, I have over the years seen a few things happen at coin shows which proved to me that "favors" (things other than high grades) are done inside the industry.   Keep in mind that the graders almost always were coin dealers prior to being hired as a grader.   And most return to coin dealing once they are done being a grader.   So it makes sense that the dealers and graders are well known to each other and likely even spend time in the same social circles.   I am not and never will accuse anyone of wrongdoing at the TPG's, but I have yet to see any business or industry where there are no back channels.

[JT2]

What VKurtB said is 100% correct.  the graders never see the paperwork on who the sender of the coins are; all they get is a coin in a flip.  there is no way for them to know who submitted them or where they came from other than receiving.

Edited December 16, 2022 by JT2
spell

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2022 at 11:41 AM, JT2 said:

What VKurtB said is 100% correct.  the graders never see the paperwork on who the send of the coins are all they get is a coin in a flip.  there is no way for them to know who submitted them or where they came from other than receiving.

You could have ended that post after the first six words. 

[VKurtB]

Also, and this is important, when people show you a slab and want you to see the grade they got, it’s almost never their TYPICAL experience. It tends to be the extraordinary one they’re waving around at the coin club. I’ve never seen a guy waving around a mundane MS63. Every day you spend in numismatics is an unwritten psychology paper just begging to be put on paper. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by VKurtB

[RWB]

Opinions are merely that.

Consistency makes opinions useful.

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2022 at 11:55 AM, RWB said:

Opinions are merely that.

Consistency makes opinions useful.

No one could accuse you of a lack of consistency. Some might call it fixation. But then again, being dead is a form of consistency too. “Dead men never learn anything new or see a need for change.”

Edited December 16, 2022 by VKurtB