Bicentennial half dollar - variety? [Variety and details in last post.] 0

[RWB]

Can anyone identify this Bicen half variety?

Edited December 11, 2022 by RWB

[Mr.Bill347]

Bicentennial backs

For the 200th anniversary (Bicentennial) of the independence of the United States of America in 1976, the Treasury already announced an open competition in October 1973 to design the backs of the dollar and its cuts (half dollars and quarters). The Vs.n (header images of the former presidents) remained unchanged, with the exception of the period date "1776-1976." The dollar (Vs. Dwight D. Eisenhower) shows on the Rs. of the Bicentennial edition the cracked freedom bell (Liberty Bell) in front of the moon, which was created by Dennis R. Williams was designed. The Bicentennial Half Dollar (Vs. John F. Kennedy) shows those of S. J. Huntington designed Independence Hall in Philadelphia. The Independence Hall. Finally, the Bicentennial Quarter (Vs. George Washington) on the Rs. a drummer, next to it the victory torch in the star circle of 13 stars, designed by Jack L. Ahr.

All pieces were published both in 400 silver (core made of 80% copper and 20% silver, sheath of 80% silver and 20% copper) and in copper-nickel (pure copper core, coated with 75% copper and 25% nickel), called "clad composition" in the USA. The silver quarter (1/4 dollar) was issued in a total weight of 5.75 g, the corresponding piece in copper nickel at 5.67 g. The Bicenntennial Half should weigh 11.5 g (silver) or 11.34 g (copper nickel) and the dollar finally weigh 24.59 g or 22.68 g

[RWB]

Thanks for the history, but can anyone spot the variety or "error?"

[Greenstang]

Floating roof?

[VKurtB]

Honestly? I don’t care. 

[Redline68]

Missing/funky window under the cupula?

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

T1 lettering? Or is that just Ikes?

Edited December 8, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[RWB]

One hint: The "S"s and and "C" are from different fonts. Likewise the two "R"s --- but those are not the obvious things.

Keep looking...

Edited December 8, 2022 by RWB

[Sandon]

   In comparing the photo with a Philadelphia circulation strike and a clad proof in a 1975 proof set that I had handy, I noticed that the "E" and the "S" in "STATES" in the coin in the photo nearly touch the flagpole between them, while on the coins I compared them with these letters are farther from the flagpole.  (Based on its coloration and frost, the coin in the photo appears to be an uncirculated 1976-S silver clad example.) Is @RWB suggesting that the design was modified for different issues of Bicentennial half dollars? If so, I've never heard of this before. Is it a new discovery?

[JT2]

it is missing the structure that is holding up the bell tower

[RWB]

Looks like we need another hint. Here's a photo of a normal bicentennial half dollar, same magnification.

Edited December 9, 2022 by RWB

[NewGuy1]

On 12/8/2022 at 4:12 PM, VKurtB said:

Honestly? I don’t care. 

I dint care that you dont care.  Hahahaha. 

Does anybody care that you dont care? Y do you keep posting about not caring about anything?  Ive been here a month and been lurking 4 a few months before that and I already know you don't care about any stuff others r interested in 

(Luv the emojis here. They fit so great with some of the members

Mybe you can get the site to give you a button that atomatically types I don't care when a post is posted. Hahaha. 

Btw, I don't care too, but I know that nobody else cares about my opinion if I don't have any stuff too add to the conversation.  But keep up the good work VkurtBDude 

[Lem E]

Missing the detail right above the clock? Missing left window in tower?

Edited December 10, 2022 by Lem E

[VKurtB]

On 12/9/2022 at 6:56 PM, NewGuy1 said:

I dint care that you dont care.  Hahahaha. 

Does anybody care that you dont care? Y do you keep posting about not caring about anything?  Ive been here a month and been lurking 4 a few months before that and I already know you don't care about any stuff others r interested in 

(Luv the emojis here. They fit so great with some of the members

Mybe you can get the site to give you a button that atomatically types I don't care when a post is posted. Hahaha. 

Btw, I don't care too, but I know that nobody else cares about my opinion if I don't have any stuff too add to the conversation.  But keep up the good work VkurtBDude 

The point is, dear @NewGuy1, that there is an entire hobby here in which so-called errors and varieties are utterly irrelevant. Part of educating new collectors is pointing that out, because many of them don’t know that. 

[RWB]

Well, if no one spots the major variety by Sunday evening I'll post the answer. (I thought this one would be easy; it's highly relevant.)

Edited December 10, 2022 by RWB

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I have to say, I am at a loss.  I have thought about this, but it is clear that I am no expert with these varieties. 

[EagleRJO]

As well as some slightly different fonts, the tower is different (missing a window, ribs, supports, etc.), and the tower shield and roof parapet are missing ribs.  In addition, some of the inscriptions (i.e. "States of America") are closer to the rim.  However, it doesn't appear to be an off-center strike on the reverse as other inscription letters seem to be correctly spaced from the rim.  I assume this is a new variety as it's not identified at NGC VarietyPlus, Variety Vista, etc.

Edited December 11, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

Other than the stuff that has been mentioned by others, I see a bit of reeding showing on the rim also the strike is a tiny bit off center and that throws everything out of whack So It may be considered a DDR variety.

[VKurtB]

One has more strength of strike and detail than the other,  but that in itself is not a variety. 

[RWB]

Thanks to all who tried to figure this one out. It is a frustrating example of what easily happens when confronted with counterfeit coins. This piece is devoid of any indication it is not a legal tender of the United States -- even though that is required by Federal law.

Nearly all posters quickly identified some of the primary indicators of counterfeits: poor definition and sharpness, sloppy lettering, positional errors, rim and edge overrun, missing or irregular details. That bodes well for members' ability to identify common characteristics of fakes from China or almost any other place. But, it also emphasizes the difficulty in taking the next step by calling this (or any other fake) what it really is -- and doing so without regard to its origin.  That might come from a scarcity of caution when examining a common coin design, a willingness to "believe" accumulated narrative, or possibly a form of justification of counterfeiting merely because it "looks OK."

This example was produced and sold to the unwary by an American company in Colorado. Here's a photo taken directly from the company website:

That it fooled everyone here who looked at the reverse photo is clear indication of the danger of counterfeiting, and of hobby organizations that retain those engaged in such activities as members.

I won't start any similar threads. Just be careful and aware.

Edited December 12, 2022 by RWB

[Sandon]

   Your posts asked us to identify the "variety" or "error", not whether the coin was genuine.  I, among others, realized that there were differences in the design details and thought that it might be some previously undiscovered and perhaps rare prototype design like the 2000-P Sacagawea dollars with boldly detailed tail feathers. Obviously, the 1975 date on the obverse would have aroused more suspicion that it just wasn't real. 

[NewGuy1]

On 12/9/2022 at 9:30 PM, VKurtB said:

The point is, dear @NewGuy1, that there is an entire hobby here in which so-called errors and varieties are utterly irrelevant. Part of educating new collectors is pointing that out, because many of them don’t know that. 

Dear Kurt dude 

Weall know you think errors are irrelevant. That's yourOPINION, and you continually remind us.  I think errors are an interesting part of collecting for me and some othermembers.  Can yoh please explain why we should believe your opinion and educate new collectors on your OPINION and not my opinion that errors can be interesting an a fun part of the hobby?  I would really like to know why your OPINION should carry so much importance while mine Nd others who collect errors should be ignored and told to other as being wrong.  Is it because I'm not a collector from Norteast,soth central middle PA?  Hahahaha.

 

Thanks Kurt dude . Will be waiting for you to teach me something. I really want to no why I need to start sharing the evals of errors to new collectors because many of them don't know or share the absolute truth of your wise OPINIONS.  

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by NewGuy1

[ldhair]

This hobby is about folks collecting what they want to collect. Telling collectors to stop doing what they enjoy is wrong in so many ways and is harmful to the hobby. 

[EagleRJO]

On 12/11/2022 at 6:43 PM, RWB said:

Thanks to all who tried to figure this one out. It is a frustrating example of what easily happens when confronted with counterfeit coins. This piece is devoid of any indication it is not a legal tender of the United States -- even though that is required by Federal law.

Nearly all posters quickly identified some of the primary indicators of counterfeits: poor definition and sharpness, sloppy lettering, positional errors, rim and edge overrun, missing or irregular details. That bodes well for members' ability to identify common characteristics of fakes from China or almost any other place. But, it also emphasizes the difficulty in taking the next step by calling this (or any other fake) what it really is -- and doing so without regard to its origin.  That might come from a scarcity of caution when examining a common coin design, a willingness to "believe" accumulated narrative, or possibly a form of justification of counterfeiting merely because it "looks OK."

This example was produced and sold to the unwary by an American company in Colorado. Here's a photo taken directly from the company website:

That it fooled everyone here who looked at the reverse photo is clear indication of the danger of counterfeiting, and of hobby organizations that retain those engaged in such activities as members.

I won't star any similar threads. Just be careful and aware.

As Sandon noted, the original question was asking what the "variety" or "error" was, with only the reverse of the coin posted.  Posting the obverse made it clear that the coin was neither a variety or error, nor a counterfeit, as the US mint never struck a 1975 Kennedy Bicentennial half dollar.  So, it is simply a fantasy overstrike of token, and very misleading to post it as a "variety" or "error".

[ldhair]

We all missed it. The reverse had all the signs of a counterfeit but we still missed it, even with the hints. As collectors, we should have caught it.

Now lets think of the general public that knows nothing about coins. None would know it was a fantasy or a fake even with seeing the obverse. How many would buy it thinking it was something really rare? Do we blame it on the public or was the coin itself being misleading? 

[JT2]

that was a good exercise thanks..

 

Oh boy here we go again .................hahahahahaha

[EagleRJO]

On 12/12/2022 at 6:59 AM, ldhair said:

We all missed it. The reverse had all the signs of a counterfeit but we still missed it, even with the hints. As collectors, we should have caught it.

Now lets think of the general public that knows nothing about coins. None would know it was a fantasy or a fake even with seeing the obverse. How many would buy it thinking it was something really rare? Do we blame it on the public or was the coin itself being misleading? 

Would the "average collector", who would be expected to at least have a copy of the Red Book, not know that a 1975 Kennedy Bicentennial half dollar was never struck by the US mint, and not do any checking of if that token was really a rare piece?

[RWB]

Is not a counterfeit a "variety" of some sort, by definition? The fake clearly identifies itself as a legal U.S. coin. It would, absolutely, be accepted in payment at any retail business. Complaining about the date on this or any other fake is simply a red herring -- and excuse to redirect away from the piece's total falsehood and illegality.

People have confidence in the validity of money in circulation. Counterfeit coins and currency damage public confidence and create real, persistent problems. The number of people who would reject this fake as counterfeit is trivial - and that includes most coin collectors.

 

[J P M]

Well that was fun RWB, We are all to blame seeing the first rule is to show both sides of the coin, and we let that pass because it was posted by someone we know.  

[EagleRJO]

A counterfeit, or copy of a legal tender coin actually produced by the US mint, as well as a fantasy overstrike or token would not be a "variety" or "error" as originally posted.  I also got sucked into commenting on the coin without asking for both sides to be posted.  And how many of the fantasy overstrike tokens actually ended up in circulation?  I think it would be like a rainbow unicorn to find one in circulation due to the cost of those tokens.

And don't we have bigger fish to fry dealing with Chinese counterfeits that actually regularly deceive and harm collectors?

Edited December 12, 2022 by EagleRJO