NGC asked me to pay extra for conversation then graded the coin as “cleaned” 0

[EagleRJO]

Personally I would prefer to get something back as "Genuine - bla bla bla" than "Details - bla bla bla".  Sounds a little easier to swallow that horribly tasting pill, but in the end matters little since it's the same result.

Edited November 18, 2022 by EagleRJO

[bobbyboshay]

On 11/17/2022 at 2:12 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

Wow that seems like total BS. If it needed conservation, was that just for the extra money?

I couldn’t understand it  I had a 1921 high relief I just wanted a grade they suggested to clean the coin I got it done hoping I would get a much higher grade only got a clean detail then what was the purpose  I felt ripped off I understand your feeling scam 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/17/2022 at 2:12 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

Wow that seems like total BS. If it needed conservation, was that just for the extra money?

On 11/19/2022 at 11:10 PM, bobbyboshay said:

I couldn’t understand it  I had a 1921 high relief I just wanted a grade they suggested to clean the coin I got it done hoping I would get a much higher grade only got a clean detail then what was the purpose  I felt ripped off I understand your feeling scam 

I understand how you could feel getting a coin back as "details" slabbed, but just snipping one comment early in the thread by @Mr.Bill347 that happened to align with how you feel with just your criticism implies that you couldn't be bothered reading detailed responses to the op and that comment by Sandon, Coinbuf, JustBob and others on carefully examining coins before submitting them and how getting back a details labeled holder can reasonably occur even with the suggested conservation by NGS. You may want to go back and read all the responses that address the post quoted and your concerns.

[pigeonman333rd]

Those articles were helpful I will be sure not to do any future business with NGC as far as Grading service needs they sound far to picky and expensive. I love the membership though chatting with you folks is worth all the money of a membership. I will pass the word not like it matters most coin shops here are ANA members but I subscribe to the three basics ANA PCGS and NGC.Thanks for all your input happy reading.

[EagleRJO]

On 11/20/2022 at 7:27 AM, pigeonman333rd said:

I will be sure not to do any future business with NGC as far as Grading service needs they sound far to picky and expensive.

I think you will find both of the big boys [NGC & PCG$] with good reputations are similar in cost to have coins graded, with NGC actually being a little more reasonable imo. I typically don’t get average valued raw coins graded by either due to the costs, and typically buy higher valued coins already slabbed, which I look at as being a business decision using a cost-benefit-risk analysis, even though coin collecting is just a hobby for me. But when I do end up buying or finding higher valued raw coins that I want to have graded I would choose NGC. I don’t have any skin in the game, so that's just a personal preference.

And they both have good industry reputations to maintain, so you are not likely to find either of the big boys letting "minor" things slide. I'm not sure what some other Cheap Charlie TPGs charge that may not be as "picky and expensive", but you would end up with something not as valuable to other collectors, or as easy to sell. To each his own as the saying goes. 😉

Edited November 20, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

In my experience, NGC is the best combination of reasonable cost and a gorgeous product. There is NO better cost/benefit situation anywhere. 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I had a similar thing happen around 10 years ago where a dealer had sold me a Bust dime that was Unc. for around a grand and said that if it did not straight grade as an Unc he would buy it back.  I sent it to NGC which notified me it would benefit from conservation and it then came back as an Unc details coin. The dealer took it back, said NGC had "cleaned" and therefore ruined the coin and refused to do further business.  Clearly it had some pvc which covered the cleaning. I'd think that they've seen enough of these to realize the quick acetone dip will not help them much.  

As for who is the best, I'm pretty sure that ICG would be better at assessing a coin before dipping as Skip Fazzari both grades coins and conserves them.   He was formerly with NGC and did conservation there.   Anacs also runs a tight ship, both are less expensive.   They also will conserve coins on an invoice as needed.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Nutmeg Coin

[VKurtB]

On 11/20/2022 at 12:44 PM, Nutmeg Coin said:

I had a similar thing happen around 10 years ago where a dealer had sold me a Bust dime that was Unc. for around a grand and said that if it did not straight grade as an Unc he would buy it back.  I sent it to NGC which notified me it would benefit from conservation and it then came back as an Unc details coin. The dealer took it back, said NGC had "cleaned" and therefore ruined the coin and refused to do further business.  Clearly it had some pvc which covered the cleaning. I'd think that they've seen enough of these to realize the quick acetone dip will not help them much.  

As for who is the best, I'm pretty sure that ICG would be better at assessing a coin before dipping as Skip Fazzari both grades coins and conserves them.   He was formerly with NGC and did conservation there.   Anacs also runs a tight ship, both are less expensive.   They also will conserve coins on an invoice as needed.

Both ANACS and ICG are adjudged by “the marketplace” as being something apart, something significantly less, and not by just a little bit. Is it fair? Vox populi, vox dei. 
 

Edited November 20, 2022 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

On 11/20/2022 at 2:40 PM, VKurtB said:

Both ANACS and ICG are adjudged by “the marketplace” as being something apart, something significantly less, and not by just a little bit. Is it fair? Vox populi, vox dei. 
 

Agreed.  I have also found both of those guys seriously lacking, coins being of lesser value, and having poor sites lacking good info and resources.  I had heard one (or both?) may be likely to go the way of the Dodo bird, but I don't recall which ones exactly.  That may be accelerated by CAC getting in the grading game.

[VKurtB]

On 11/20/2022 at 2:35 PM, EagleRJO said:

Agreed.  I have also found both of those guys seriously lacking, coins being of lesser value, and having poor sites lacking good info and resources.  I had heard one (or both?) may be likely to go the way of the Dodo bird, but I don't recall which ones exactly.  That may be accelerated by CAC getting in the grading game.

There will likely always be a market for “cheap”. Unfortunately. 

[“”]

On 11/20/2022 at 3:35 PM, EagleRJO said:

Agreed.  I have also found both of those guys seriously lacking, coins being of lesser value, and having poor sites lacking good info and resources.  I had heard one (or both?) may be likely to go the way of the Dodo bird, but I don't recall which ones exactly.  That may be accelerated by CAC getting in the grading game.

I would be surprised to see ANACS go out. At least I hope they do not. IMO they are still the leader in error coins for attribution and grading.

[VKurtB]

On 11/20/2022 at 5:04 PM, Simple Collector said:

I would be surprised to see ANACS go out. At least I hope they do not. IMO they are still the leader in error coins for attribution and grading.

Errors? Meh. VAM’s? Yup. 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/20/2022 at 6:04 PM, Simple Collector said:

I would be surprised to see ANACS go out. At least I hope they do not. IMO they are still the leader in error coins for attribution and grading.

I seem to recall it was ICG who may have been speculated could be on the way out, at least at that time which was a while ago, but I didn't remember specifically so I was trying not to further speculate.  Both are still up and running as far as I know, and I have heard that quite a number use ANACS for error coins.  I know they also certify the Dan Carr fantasy coins, which I don't believe others do [Moonlight Mint - ANACS Certifications].

Edited November 20, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Nutmeg Coin]

On 11/20/2022 at 6:35 PM, EagleRJO said:

I seem to recall it was ICG who may have been speculated could be on the way out, at least at that time which was a while ago, but I didn't remember specifically so I was trying not to further speculate.  Both are still up and running as far as I know, and I have heard that quite a number use ANACS for error coins.  I know they also certify the Dan Carr fantasy coins, which I don't believe others do [Moonlight Mint - ANACS Certifications].

You and Burt are badly misinformed on the market viability of Anacs as well as Icg.   They both adhere to the ANA grading standards and have good holders.  I have bought and sold both as well as the two top grading service holder coins and don't see much difference in their standards.  I know a long term high end dealer who used to use the top two services a lot but went to Anacs with $6-$8 bulk grading of many classic US and foreign coins and they sell about as strong as the others.   I wish ICG would upgrade their holders but their graders, primarily Randy Campbell and Skip Fazzari are accurate and fair graders.   In the under $1000 coin both do very well in most respects.  Once you get into the high end rarities the two top companies and cac are of primary interest. 

[Sandon]

   This thread sure has strayed from the original topic!

   ANACS still fills a useful niche by offering professional authentication and grading at the "collector coin" level for a reasonable price and without requiring a membership, as well as more comprehensively attributing die varieties than the larger services.  ANACS also sends representatives to smaller coin shows that the larger services wouldn't bother with and apparently gets a fair number of submissions from collectors and dealers at these shows.  I don't find ANACS grading standards to be any looser than NGC's or PCGS's, except perhaps for a period after ANACS was sold by the ANA.  ANACS is just as likely as the larger services to find coins impaired and give them "Details" grades, if not more so. 

   The downside to ANACS' lower prices is that it offers no online services other than a population report and certificate verification. In my opinion, ANACS doesn't get the respect it deserves.  (For example, CAC has never considered ANACS coins for stickers even though some, especially those in the old small holders, are conservatively graded.)

   Most ICG certified coins I've seen are modern, and I can't say I'm impressed by ICG grading. (I overheard a dealer say that he believes the acronym "ICG" stands for "I Can't Grade"!)  However, the only ICG graded coin I own is a Trade dollar that I think was reasonably graded. I've been seeing fewer ICG coins at coin shows I attend, but I've heard of no possibility of ICG ceasing to conduct business.

[EagleRJO]

On 11/20/2022 at 7:56 PM, Sandon said:

Most ICG certified coins I've seen are modern, and I can't say I'm impressed by ICG grading. (I overheard a dealer say that he believes the acronym "ICG" stands for "I Can't Grade"!)

Funny stuff Sandon!  That rings a bell with the article I read a while ago.  Although, it may have just been something like staff changes or growing pains at the time since they are still around.

However, I have seen a number of coins slabbed by them going for less compared to the big boys on sites like GC.  And of the ones I had been looking at, while lately doing quite a lot of bidding on Morgans and older half dollars, there were a few that were definitely over-graded.  Like an AU Morgan with significant wear on the hair as well as on the eagles' breast and wings that would put it in the VF-XF range without a doubt.  I don't just go by what's on a label, for any TPG, which is why I noticed.

Granted it's a limited number and I don't have any slabbed by them with an issue, but it was enough combined with what I had read a while ago to put me off.  And I honestly don't see how they can take the time and have procedures in place to ensure accurate evaluation and grading, and still remain in business, with how little they charge for just basic grading.

Just my two (Indian head) Nickels. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by EagleRJO

[RWB]

RE: "NGC asked me to pay extra for conversation then graded the coin as 'cleaned.' "

Unusual request. What did you talk about in the conversation? Was this a video conversation or did they come to your home? Was conserving the coin discussed...what about grading options afterward?

Edited November 28, 2022 by RWB

[Nutmeg Coin]

On 11/20/2022 at 9:25 PM, EagleRJO said:

Funny stuff Sandon!  That rings a bell with the article I read a while ago.  Although, it may have just been something like staff changes or growing pains at the time since they are still around.

However, I have seen a number of coins slabbed by them going for less compared to the big boys on sites like GC.  And of the ones I had been looking at, while lately doing quite a lot of bidding on Morgans and older half dollars, there were a few that were definitely over-graded.  Like an AU Morgan with significant wear on the hair as well as on the eagles' breast and wings that would put it in the VF-XF range without a doubt.  I don't just go by what's on a label, for any TPG, which is why I noticed.

Granted it's a limited number and I don't have any slabbed by them with an issue, but it was enough combined with what I had read a while ago to put me off.  And I honestly don't see how they can take the time and have procedures in place to ensure accurate evaluation and grading, and still remain in business, with how little they charge for just basic grading.

Just my two (Indian head) Nickels. 

And that is just hate and slander against ICG that has two top graders who from what I have seen do their best to grade coins accurately; they have a guaranty like the other 3 ebay acceptable services, are very user friendly--you can actually call in on one of their certified coins for specifics and the rest of their staff are usually helpful.    They just don't have the resources to offer some of the advantages of PCGS and NGC.   

[EagleRJO]

No hate or slander, just my own and Sandon's personal experiences.  You are free to believe what you think also.

[World Colonial]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:30 PM, VKurtB said:

I received the very same letter from NGC several submissions ago. NGC had preliminarily graded the coin in question a MS66. But the letter said NGC “believed”, with no guarantee, that conservation MIGHT help the coin. I agreed, and knew what they meant. I told them to go ahead. That coin is now in an NGC MS66 CAMEO holder. “Yo payz yo Money and yo takes yo chances.”

It's been a long time, but I received coins back from NGC with a note that they thought the coin would benefit from conservation.  It was a Post It note attached to the slab.  Happened a few times and the coins came back straight graded.

My inference from the OP is that they took this suggestion as a(virtual) guarantee.  Not sure why anyone would do that.  My understanding of the notes I received is that it would improve the coin's appearance, not that it would necessarily result in a higher grade, be worthwhile financially or anything else.  

I'd only have submitted a 1936 dime if I thought it would grade at least MS-66.  Not financially worthwhile otherwise.  I'd just buy one in the TPG grade I wanted otherwise.  I wouldn't have conserved it either, as at $30 plus the grading fee, it's not worth it either.

[ldhair]

I don't use ICG but they offer a nice holder at about $10.

Many coins are not worth putting $25 to $30 into.