Albino Flying Eagle 2 2

[Chris Mikesh]

Hi All,

This may have been asked before, but I couldn't find the thread.  Found in a junk box, several Flying Eagle Cents.  All 1857.

Of the 10 I have; I have one that really stands out in color.  As you can see it is not cleaned or bleached by comparison to others.  In fact, it has a similar color to a nickel.  OK... It's probably bronze but didn't see anything in the Red Book about it - nor online.  

Granted - they are in bad shape, and I can see some copper in the albino FE Cent.  I would think that after 100+ years it would be dark brown.  What do you guys know about this?

 

God Bless,

Chris

[Oldhoopster]

The composition of the flying eagle is 88% copper and 12% nickel. Your coins are just showing lots of environmental damage, nothing more

[Coinbuf]

It has been cleaned, looks like it was dug out of the ground and whomever did find it cleaned it to remove the dirt and (most of the) crud.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Coinbuf

[Sandon]

   Remember that a U.S. "nickel" is composed of 75% copper and only 25% nickel alloy, but it is normally silver colored.  They sometimes show darker color when corroded like your 1893 Liberty nickel. Circulated Flying Eagle cents, as well as Indian cents from 1859-63 and some 1864s, with 88% copper and 12% nickel alloy composition, are usually seen in various shades of beige, tan and light brown but are sometimes almost silvery in color and dark if buried for a long time, which is probably why your first specimen is so dark. (I've read that one of the contemporary names for these copper nickel cents was "white cents".)  The piece you are describing as "albino" appears to have been cleaned or polished, as well as being corroded.

   The standard "Red Book" sets forth the composition and other standards of each type of coins in fine print below the name of each series.

    

[RWB]

New CuNi cents were called "white cents" because of their light copper color. Over time, these lightly tone to darker shades. If a cent is cleaned, the process roughly starts over again. when the Philadelphia Mint began redeeming these, the pieces were melted, a little nickel metal was added and then used to strike shield nickels.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I agree that the coin was likely in the ground and cleaned.  All of the above information is good.

@Chris Mikesh I can't help but to notice that you are posting some coins with some problems (damaged, cleaned, etc.).  I know these coins seem like a good deal when you are buying them, but problem coins will be very difficult to sell (should that time ever come).  I am NOT trying to say that you need to (or should) buy high-end/expensive coins.  

What I am saying is "be picky," find coins that fit your budget. If you don't know your budget for a coin, then that's a great place to start.  Can you afford the coin in VG?  How much more would it cost in F? In XF...AU? Where does the price spike?  You will have to slow down a little and really train your eye to discern good, honest wear from coins with damage/problems.  Compare raw coins to their graded counterparts and really plan each coin out. I realize this takes some time and effort, but it will pay dividends and I think you will grow to like the hobby more than you do today.  

All that said, this is your collection, and this is your hobby.  Collect what you like, however you like.  I just wanted to give your some newbie-to-newbie advice that will allow you to get more out of the hobby.  Regardless - have fun!

[Chris Mikesh]

Hi all,

Yup - I knew I could count on you to give me the answer.  Thank you.  I've never heard of a "White Coin" before.  I live in a very race sensitive area - so I need to be very careful with that term.  It is mentioned (now that you gave me the correct term) in some blogs and articles.  BIG HELP.  Thank you.

 

[Chris Mikesh]

Hi again

The Neophyte Numismatist asked a good question - and I'm glad for the advice.  Why am I posting problem coins?  (sorry for the long reply)

Answer 1: Grandkids.  I have 12 and 5 have recently gotten into the hobby.  Cheap coins like this are a great way for them to build interest inexpensively.  But I have also gotten back into the hobby again in the last 2 years.  After a 50-year hiatus, I rediscovered my old coins and the thrill has re-emerged.  So, I have questions I couldn't ask when I was a kid.  That way GrandPa is a "know it all".  LOL!

Answer 2: My father passed away last February.  He left a Milk Can (the 10-gallon kind you see at dairies) FULL of loose change from MY Great-Grandfather and passed up the generations to my Grandkids.  The can dates back to 1900 and at the bottom was the gold pot at the end of the rainbow.  3 gold coins.  But the can had thousands of pennies and nickels.  Also, about 20 Morgans and another 45 Peace Dollars.  Just by looking at the dates of the coins you can tell the hard times from the good times.  The family hails from Iowa so when the river flooded - bad times.  The Depression also made hoarding of little things like the pennies and nickels - very few dimes and quarters from that time.  

So, to put it all back into perspective, the advice is good, and I have invested into quality Gold and Silver Coins, so when I'm gone, the 500-hundred-pound milk can will have more than nickels and pennies.  But the best ones are preserved or sent to NGC.  

Investor - yes

Hobbyist - yes.

Thank you for the interest and sharing the hobby.  You guys are the best!

God Bless,

Chris

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I totally get the perspective and logic, and completely agree that teaching kids is great.  We are simply custodians until the next generation takes over.

[JKK]

On 10/21/2022 at 12:31 PM, Chris Mikesh said:

Hi all,

Yup - I knew I could count on you to give me the answer.  Thank you.  I've never heard of a "White Coin" before.  I live in a very race sensitive area - so I need to be very careful with that term.  It is mentioned (now that you gave me the correct term) in some blogs and articles.  BIG HELP.  Thank you.

 

I've never heard of it either. What I have heard of is a blast white finish (usually caused by hideous cleaning, probably with a dremel tool), or white billon (an alloy of debased copper or bronze with a little silver that somehow looks almost like real silver), or white metal (general grab-bag term in my experience for mixed junky metal alloys that mostly lack notable intrinsic value). The first is common with US silver, but the modifier should insulate you from any implications of racist intent. I mean, white is an actual color you can paint your house, and non-whites are not prohibited in any way from using it. The second I have seen mainly on jitals (Afghan regional small change of the era circa 1000 CE), to distinguish it from real silver and crummy billon that looks like common bronze. The third shows up on a lot of tokens and modern small change (I suspect the latter most often includes a lot of aluminum such as a weak Al-brass or Al-bronze alloy). To me, to have a "white coin," means someone actually painted the thing.

Long as you don't bust out the joke "white coins matter," I think you should be all right. Some people have zero sense of humor.

[Chris Mikesh]

LOL!  JKK.  Yes, I do have a sense of humor, that sometimes gets in my way.  I'm not sure "White Coins Matters" is something I'd put on a T-Shirt!  Really funny.  thanx.

GB,

Chris

[RWB]

The contemporary term was "white cents." Silver coins were considered "white" and gold was called "gold" or occasionally "orange." However, only the CuNi cents from 1856-1864 were ever routinely referred to by the metal's color.

[Sandon]

   I've also had to settle for "problem coins" when unimpaired examples were beyond my budget.  Here are photos of my 1857 Flying Eagle cent, which is uncirculated but has some "graffiti" in the form of a plus sign or cross lightly scratched on the reverse.  It does show the original color, a light tan with reddish and gold hues.  I suppose that to people in the 1850s and 60s these cents looked "white" in comparison to the pure copper large cents that they replaced.

 

 

[EagleRJO]

"Blast White" can also be a reference to a very shiny and flashy older silver coin, like Morgans. Usually a dipped coin that typically looks whitewashed to me, but to each his own.

[RWB]

"White Cent" or "White Penny" used in a letter:

Wilmington, Del., March 12, 1890
United States Mint

I beg you to inform me with enclosed card, whether you exchange all white pennies, or
only those which have the Eagle Brand on one side of it, as a party told me, you pay $9.00 for
300 white pennies.

Yours Very truly,
Ella Riuck
807 West 5th Street

[Oldhoopster]

On 10/22/2022 at 12:52 PM, RWB said:

"White Cent" or "White Penny" used in a letter:

Wilmington, Del., March 12, 1890
United States Mint

I beg you to inform me with enclosed card, whether you exchange all white pennies, or
only those which have the Eagle Brand on one side of it, as a party told me, you pay $9.00 for
300 white pennies.

Yours Very truly,
Ella Riuck
807 West 5th Street

Wow. 3 cents apiece. They must have been the wheat cents of the 1890s  

[Henri Charriere]

My sincere condolences on the death of your father earlier this year.

The ten-gallon milk can he left you turned out to be an inter-generational Time Capsule!  (Unbeknownst to your average person, while a thick one-quart glass bottle can withstand the weight of metal, an old-fasioned 5-gallon glass water bottle, or green-glass wine-holding demi-john, cannot, particularly if lifted by the neck.) 

While I can certainly appreciate the use of a metal can as a large piggy bank, I would resist your repurposing it as a bank for all but coins no greater than face value. (As you have no doubt discovered, the can at some point will be difficult if not impossible to move or lift.)  I know that practice is common, but there is a reason why wooden kegs and canvas bags were used to transport coins. Two good habits you can adopt as a newly-minted collector are holding coins by their edges, using your forefinger and thumb, and protecting your coins in flips or holders designed for that purpose. [Rare coins may be submitted for authentication and certification.]

It is quite possible your forefathers may have inadvertently left you something special. Good Luck and Happy hunting!

 

[Chris Mikesh]

Right you are Quitus,

My G-kids love the coins, and like my model planes (1/72 plastic) hold it on the edges.  I have cotton and latex gloves for the kids (Did you ever see a kid pick his nose with a floppy oversized rubber glove?).  Even if it is a junk coin, I'm trying to get them into the right habits.

The can no longer has raw coins.  All are in 2X2 flips.  My high-end investment or family coins are in the safe or at the bank. My daughters (4) are also contributing to the can as a new family tradition.  It's already over 50lbs.

Time capsule is right - maybe I'll write book someday.

God Bless,

Chris

[RWB]

On 10/22/2022 at 2:17 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Wow. 3 cents apiece. They must have been the wheat cents of the 1890s  

There was a persistent fantasy, fueled by irresponsible newspaper filler, that FE cents contained gold. Another version had gold in large coppers. This is in a similar "bin of ignorance" as the Sack "golden dollars" containing gold.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/22/2022 at 8:59 PM, RWB said:

There was a persistent fantasy, fueled by irresponsible newspaper filler, that FE cents contained gold. Another version had gold in large coppers. This is in a similar "bin of ignorance" as the Sack "golden dollars" containing gold.

[Curious, are there any surviving examples of the gold-plated 1883 No Cents V-nickels you may be aware of?]

[RWB]

On 10/22/2022 at 9:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Curious, are there any surviving examples of the gold-plated 1883 No Cents V-nickels you may be aware of?]

Gold plated 1883 Liberty nickels contemporary to that year are extremely difficult to authenticate. I've never seen a complete description of one in official or high-quality publications of the time. Further,  many different people made these and thus the workmanship, especially on reeding, would vary. The base coin is expected to be Unc or very close to it, with thickness and uniformity of plating varying. Reeding would have been done before plating. Altered coin should have nearly original appearance sufficient to fool casual observation. It is unlikely that many nickels with drilled-out and lead-filled interiors were made due to the short time these could have circulated before wide publicity of gold plating. (See my book Fads, Fakes and Foibles for the story of this design and its rationale.)

Here is a short newspaper article about gold plated nickels.

Order for change of design:

March 16, 1883
Sir,
I have received your letter of the 14th inst., submitting for approval a change in the
arrangement of the inscriptions upon the reverse of the five cent nickel coin as follows: The
legend “E Pluribus Unum” to be taken from below the wreath, and placed above the same, and
the word “cents” to be inserted below the wreath.
You are hereby authorized to make this change and to commence the coinage and issue
of the pieces as soon as practicable.
Very respectfully,
Horatio C. Burchard, Director

Edited October 23, 2022 by RWB

[RWB]

The presumed scam is: Crook enters small store and selects items totaling less than 5-cents. He/she fishes in pocket/purse and pulls out a plated nickel, placing it on the counter. Crook waits for merchant to offer $4.95 change. If only correct change offered, crook accepts 1 or 2-cents. In both cases the crook does not reveal anything about the plated nickel. If challenged by merchant, crook retrieves plated nickel, apologizes profusely for their error. Merchants will likely pass information to others on the block and local police officer. Small town and urban neighborhood merchants were quick to distribute information on fakes and scams. Ethnic neighborhoods were particularly close knit about "outsiders" offering deals.

As with any similar coin transaction, the last one accepting the coin is stuck with it, if their bank rejects it.

Edited October 23, 2022 by RWB

[pigeonman333rd]

On 10/21/2022 at 4:56 PM, Sandon said:

   I've also had to settle for "problem coins" when unimpaired examples were beyond my budget.  Here are photos of my 1857 Flying Eagle cent, which is uncirculated but has some "graffiti" in the form of a plus sign or cross lightly scratched on the reverse.  It does show the original color, a light tan with reddish and gold hues.  I suppose that to people in the 1850s and 60s these cents looked "white" in comparison to the pure copper large cents that they replaced.

 

 

Same. I've had to settle for problem coins when other high end coins where to expensive here's an example of one of two I got for $309. I gave one two a friend which was exactly the same ungradable but still nice. So about a $150 dollar price per coin. Which is probably better then the raw coin I paid $425 for that someone on this website said is a cleaned coin. 

[pigeonman333rd]

Here's a picture of the coin they say is cleaned. I still like it but I paid too much for a cleaned coin when a certified cleaned coin can be obtained for way less money. Here's a pic of the coin. 

[pigeonman333rd]

[Sandon]

@pigeonman333rd--The unnatural shininess of the surfaces should have told you that the coin was cleaned or polished.  If you want to buy uncertified coins for substantial amounts of money, it pays to learn by looking at certified specimens, even if you can't afford them, so that you can tell what they look like with original surfaces.

[pigeonman333rd]

Is still a die clash so I'm not worried if its not worth what I paid for it it will be someday.

[CIII]

I have an 1883 gold plated Liberty Nickel, I believe.

[Henri Charriere]

@Tigerbait:  To paraphrase a phrase used at the Watergate hearings, What did @Tigerbaitknow, and when did he know it?  I am inclined to believe you have the real McCoy because it bears evidence of having gone thru the trials and tribulations of the past 139 years in circulation. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a certified party pooper!

D*na:  I'll allow it, but bear in mind every member is entitled to an opinion.

Fine, it's all good!  👍 

[Oldhoopster]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:45 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@Tigerbait:  To paraphrase a phrase used at the Watergate hearings, What did @Tigerbaitknow, and when did he know it?  I am inclined to believe you have the real McCoy because it bears evidence of having gone thru the trials and tribulations of the past 139 years in circulation. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a certified party pooper!

D*na:  I'll allow it, but bear in mind every member is entitled to an opinion.

Fine, it's all good!  👍 

It's high grade, but doesn't have the added reeding to simulate a real $5 gold piece.  Is it contemporary or modern or somewhere in between, I don't think there is any good way to tell.  

Sorry to be a certified party pooper in your book, but that's my opinion.  By the way, if you know of an accurate way to determine the age of gold plating, please let us know.  I suppose you could do XRF, XRD , or SEM analysis of known plating dates and see if there is a statistical difference in the trace elements, but even that might be sketchy.  If you're just eyeballing it, well, I think that is a poor method unless you've examined lots of examples