Future for coins graded with Environmental Damage 3 3

[Matthew221]

Hello, looking to start in the world of coin collecting

I have seen this coin and thinking of buying it: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325240912077?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180816085401%26meid%3Da4ddc7ce90cc46e2accfa1e5505948ac%26pid%3D100970%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D325240912077%26itm%3D325240912077%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100970.m5481&_trkparms=pageci%3Aab20bb95-494a-11ed-92c5-5e5c9db862a1|parentrq%3Ac677631a1830a9f9331517b1fff03a26|iid%3A1

It may seem like a silly question so I do apologise, but with the environmental damage label, does that mean that the coin will continue to deteriorate in the slab or is it now preserved with nothing remaining on the coin to damage it further?

Thanks!

[RWB]

The coins should be stable if they were handled by knowledgeable persons.

"Environmental Damage" means that the damage has occurred - not that it continues.

[Mr.Bill347]

Environmental damage can mean the coin was contaminated by external means like being buried. Are you hung up on getting a graded coin? This coin seems to carry a fair value I found a raw coin on EBay that looks promising, perhaps you could get it graded yourself.

[Coinbuf]

In a very general sense the usual reply I give to questions about purchasing problem coins, coins that have environmental damage, tooled, holed, and a host of other issues; is to avoid those coins.   When you buy a problem coin you are buying someone else's problem.   Now there are circumstances where for extremely rare coins, by that I mean coins where you might see one offered for sale every ten years or more, then in that case you might need and want to settle for a coin with issues.   And the terms used to describe coins with problems run the gamut of extreme environmental damage to barely visible.   So when considering the purchase of a problem coin you need to assess how bad the damage to the coin is and how bad you need/want it.

For myself I would rather wait and save to buy a nice problem free coin than be impatient and have an accumulation of coins with problems.   The old saying patience is a virtue is a wise and true saying.

[VKurtB]

If the Russia - Ukraine war goes nuclear, today’s environmentally damaged coins may end up as gems. 

[Liam ll]

VKURTB are you inferring that these Russian gold rubles may end up as common world currency? 

 

[EagleRJO]

On 10/11/2022 at 2:33 PM, Coinbuf said:

For myself I would rather wait and save to buy a nice problem free coin than be impatient and have an accumulation of coins with problems.   The old saying patience is a virtue is a wise and true saying.

I agree generally, although I have considered slightly impaired coins at an appropriate discount (e.g. down one grade or 2/3 value) for less common ones with a complete set I am working on to plug some holes.

@Matthew221do you really want your first purchased coin to be an impaired one?

Edited October 19, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Henri Charriere]

Don't know if you've bought that coin or not, but member Coinbuf's counsel (above) is wise, and doubly so if you are ordering a coin from abroad.  I believe it best to approach coin collecting not just as a hobby, but as an investment.  What you will want is something that will hold its value over time, or exceed it.  The very first thing a buyer will bring to your attention when selling is condition, and if your coin is degraded, that's a major minus that will be difficult if not impossible to overcome. Why not wait and pick something out you will be proud of!  I wish you all the best!  

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 10/11/2022 at 5:56 AM, Matthew221 said:

...does that mean that the coin will continue to deteriorate in the slab or is it now preserved with nothing remaining on the coin to damage it further?

I would say "it depends."  If you see a coin with bright green (or emerald) verdigris, you should assume that the verdigris is still active and slowly eating the coin.  Inactive verdigris is a dark brown color.  I have seen several copper coins with active verdigris.

I wholly subscribe to @Coinbuf's post above.  Problem coins should be avoided if possible.  Once the new-purchase euphoria dissipates, you will be left seeing the problems every time you view the coin, and may grow to regret the purchase.  Problem coins are very easy to get into, and very difficult to get out of. 

Even if the coin is rare, you will find yourself less than satisfied in the long run.  You will feel that tinge of regret every time you say the word "but".  It's great, but.... it was a good deal, but....etc.  IMO  it would be better to leave the hole open than to buy a problem coin.  With a little saving, this coin can be had without having to use the word "but".  I truly think you will be happier with the coin in the long run.

Good luck, however you wish to proceed.

[VKurtB]

On 10/13/2022 at 4:27 PM, Liam ll said:

VKURTB are you inferring that these Russian gold rubles may end up as common world currency? 

 

No, I’m suggesting lots of round discs of metal may become molten and resolidified smudges of metal. 

[Modwriter]

On 10/14/2022 at 2:19 PM, VKurtB said:

No, I’m suggesting lots of round discs of metal may become molten and resolidified smudges of metal. 

https://www.cnn.com/2015/08/05/world/hiroshima-survivors-artifacts/index.html

@VKurtB is correct. The 10th picture is what happened to Japanese coins after the nuclear bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.

[Henri Charriere]

[Q.A.: What're you doing?

🐓 :  Grading them.

Q.A.  Put that lens down, silly wabbit!

🐓:  Rooster!

Q.A.:  Whatever, sheesh!]

Welcome, er, back, @Modwriter!  

[Modwriter]

On 10/18/2022 at 7:28 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Q.A.: What're you doing?

🐓 :  Grading them.

Q.A.  Put that lens down, silly wabbit!

🐓:  Rooster!

Q.A.:  Whatever, sheesh!]

Welcome, er, back, @Modwriter!  

Hello @Quintus Arrius! How are you doing? Staying out of trouble? Have you found the Roosters you were searching for? Have you seen my stapler? 🤓

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/19/2022 at 4:59 AM, Modwriter said:

Hello @Quintus Arrius! How are you doing? Staying out of trouble? Have you found the Roosters you were searching for? Have you seen my stapler? 🤓

Your voice is missed on this Forum.  I am doing just fine; I found all the Roosters I was looking for. Haven't seen your stapler; I'll put out an APB for them straightaway.  Good to hear from you!  

[Modwriter]

Thank you @Quintus Arrius. What are you collecting nowadays? I have been going through about 6 months of my change and noticed that the new zincoln cents already have a lot of carbon spots. I really like the full luster of the 2022 quarters. Im left wondering if the mint changed the metal or process, perhaps with new machinery.

 

[Henri Charriere]

@Modwriter:

I am what some may call a dues-paying lurker. .      

The Anna May Wong quarters will be out shortly.  Judging by the schematics I've seen, old-time collectors like me will have to get past the generic, inartistic, computer-generated fonts to find any redeeming value in them. Nice to know you're puttering about out there somewhere. [I thank you for liking me publicly, at a time when it wasn't fashionable to do so.]  

Edited October 20, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Add: "about"

[Modwriter]

On 10/19/2022 at 3:41 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@Modwriter:

I am what some may call a dues-paying lurker. .      

The Anna May Wong quarters will be out shortly.  Judging by the schematics I've seen, old-time collectors like me will have to get past the generic, inartistic, computer-generated fonts to find any redeeming value in them. Nice to know you're puttering out there somewhere. [I thank you for liking me publicly, at a time when it wasn't fashionable to do so.]  

I have not found the Nina Otero-Warren version. The Anna May Wong quarters will be released October 24th. The new designs are not as busy as the state and national park quarters. In the old days of graphic design, we were told to fit as many bylines on the magazine cover as possible. The moderators were watching us closely back then. I have been clean and sober for over a year and a half now.🙈🙉🙊😊

[VKurtB]

On 10/19/2022 at 5:26 PM, Modwriter said:

Thank you @Quintus Arrius. What are you collecting nowadays? I have been going through about 6 months of my change and noticed that the new zincoln cents already have a lot of carbon spots. I really like the full luster of the 2022 quarters. Im left wondering if the mint changed the metal or process, perhaps with new machinery.

 

Much higher relief, which creates more metal flow, which creates metal flow LINES, which create luster. The big ol’ star on the Mankiller quarters is amazingly high relief. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:46 PM, Modwriter said:

.... The moderators were watching us closely back then....

[Huh?... You just hadda come out and say that! And here I was perpetuating the big bold lie that the mods have me on a short lease Now! No matter, welcome back!]  

[Modwriter]

On 10/19/2022 at 5:28 PM, VKurtB said:

Much higher relief, which creates more metal flow, which creates metal flow LINES, which create luster. The big ol’ star on the Mankiller quarters is amazingly high relief. 

Thank you @VKurtB The dies must be made with super modern milling machines. Yes, the Mankiller star really jumps.

[Modwriter]

On 10/19/2022 at 6:31 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Huh?... You just hadda come out and say that! And here I was perpetuating the big bold lie that the mods have me on a short lease Now! No matter, welcome back!]  

At least your transgressions did not end up permanently on your NGC profile.lol I am forever branded as a TOS violator. I wonder if they would delete it if I asked?

[RWB]

Let's be frank about damaged coins: they have no future. They will always be damaged and will always trade as such.

[Matthew221]

Thanks everyone for your advice!  As you can see I didn't buy the coin and will save up to purchase a coin I will truly be proud of, can't wait to start this hobby 

[RWB]

On 10/20/2022 at 7:00 AM, Matthew221 said:

Thanks everyone for your advice!  As you can see I didn't buy the coin and will save up to purchase a coin I will truly be proud of, can't wait to start this hobby 

Congratulations, you've already started and made substantial advancement, although that might not be immediately evident! Examining and assessing a coin - independent of price, hype, or sales pressure - is a fundamental to learning the hobby of numismatics and getting maximum enjoyment. Asking thoughtful questions also points to clearer understanding and more rapid progress. (There's a "new" member here who began just a few months ago, and who has made immense progress based on a similar approach as yours. He contributed to this thread.)

[Matthew221]

On 10/20/2022 at 3:03 PM, RWB said:

Congratulations, you've already started and made substantial advancement, although that might not be immediately evident! Examining and assessing a coin - independent of price, hype, or sales pressure - is a fundamental to learning the hobby of numismatics and getting maximum enjoyment. Asking thoughtful questions also points to clearer understanding and more rapid progress. (There's a "new" member here who began just a few months ago, and who has made immense progress based on a similar approach as yours. He contributed to this thread.)

Thank you, as someone who is new I really do appreciate everyone's advice and will definitely take any advice on board. Now its a waiting game until I find a coin I like that I can be proud of to have in my collection 

[EagleRJO]

On 10/20/2022 at 5:28 PM, Matthew221 said:

Thank you, as someone who is new I really do appreciate everyone's advice and will definitely take any advice on board. Now its a waiting game until I find a coin I like that I can be proud of to have in my collection 

I think you made the right call passing on the impared coin as your first purchase and are sure to find one you will be happy with. Since you are a newer collector I would recommend checking out the following thread by one of the vets who posts regularly on this board ...

I would recommend focusing on resources on grading and authentication if you are interested in raw coins, but there is a greater risk of overpaying or getting a counterfeit going that route. It seems like you may be interested in British coins, so also consider getting/borrowing a book on those coins and reading up on them before you start buying them. Your local library prob doesn't have many of the referenced books but can likely find copies for you to borrow.

And don't be afraid to post any coins you may be considering or questions you may have on this board, no matter how dumb it may seem. That has served me well in general and also related to a complete collection of particular coins I am working on.

Edited October 21, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Modwriter]

On 10/20/2022 at 3:28 AM, RWB said:

Let's be frank about damaged coins: they have no future. They will always be damaged and will always trade as such.

What about slabbed gold coins labeled with Details? 

[Sandon]

  

On 10/21/2022 at 5:05 PM, Modwriter said:

What about slabbed gold coins labeled with Details? 

   It depends whether you are buying them to collect them or to acquire gold bullion.  Common date gold coins in circulated and lower mint state grades (for most series) usually don't trade for much over bullion value anyway, and there couldn't be much of a discount for one that is damaged or otherwise seriously impaired. If you're a collector, you should buy the best coins you can afford and avoid problem examples of coins that you could affordably buy unimpaired.  If you're just interested in acquiring gold, whatever discount you could get for an impaired--but still full weight--coin might make it worth your while, and certification by a reputable grading service would provide some assurance that the coin is genuine.

   As a collector of older U.S. coins, many (for copper coins, probably most) of which have some level of impairment (scratches, "cleaning", environmental damage, etc.), I have purchased a number of such coins, both certified and uncertified, with some level of impairment, but which I thought were still interesting and well worth what I paid for them. it depends upon the severity of the impairment--some coins described as "cleaned" are actually rather attractive--and how much lower the price is than it would be for an unimpaired specimen. (I'm grateful to those who say to "never" buy such pieces, as this makes them more affordable for me!)   

[Modwriter]

On 10/21/2022 at 4:31 PM, Sandon said:

  

   It depends whether you are buying them to collect them or to acquire gold bullion.  Common date gold coins in circulated and lower mint state grades (for most series) usually don't trade for much over bullion value anyway, and there couldn't be much of a discount for one that is damaged or otherwise seriously impaired. If you're a collector, you should buy the best coins you can afford and avoid problem examples of coins that you could affordably buy unimpaired.  If you're just interested in acquiring gold, whatever discount you could get for an impaired--but still full weight--coin might make it worth your while, and certification by a reputable grading service would provide some assurance that the coin is genuine.

   As a collector of older U.S. coins, many (for copper coins, probably most) of which have some level of impairment (scratches, "cleaning", environmental damage, etc.), I have purchased a number of such coins, both certified and uncertified, with some level of impairment, but which I thought were still interesting and well worth what I paid for them. it depends upon the severity of the impairment--some coins described as "cleaned" are actually rather attractive--and how much lower the price is than it would be for an unimpaired specimen. (I'm grateful to those who say to "never" buy such pieces, as this makes them more affordable for me!)   

Thank you @Sandon I am high bidder on 5 ANACS low graded gold dollar coins.. Hoping to get at least two. I am a collector but I would like to have gold bullion to stash away.

 

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/21/2022 at 7:31 PM, Sandon said:

.... If you're a collector, you should buy the best coins you can afford and avoid problem examples of coins that you could affordably buy unimpaired....

I do not know if this has been studied in any meaningful way----I may just consider a dedicated thread on this topic----but I would imagine what whet the appetites of coin collectors of yore was something they found in change. They got themselves albums; they starting filling holes. At some point, whether filling one album or a series of such display formats, they evolved: they began upgrading and in so doing specialized, limiting their collecting to a single type of coin, or a series.

Today, of course, collectors have choices. The pickings in change may seem limited, but it has not deterred the determined collector from attempting to complete a series based on what they can find, either in change or on the internet. [A childhood friend of mine acquired a 1795 scrawny eagle in the 1960's from Stack's (for no particular reason I can recall, and moved on to other pursuits.) There are collectors of Proof Sets, and little else. [If asked, I would volunteer I have not acquired a stone coin from Yap due to "practical considerations," but the truth is with my luck I'd get mugged rolling it home from the subway, so why bother?     

The above excerpt from member @Sandon is as good a distillation of sage, time-tested advice one collector or investor can give another which exemplifies the spirit of congenial coin collecting.