Green Bean Crossover 0

[zadok]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm talking about a 65 CAC or any other grade costing more than a 1-grade higher coin (in this case, 66).  I haven't seen it and I scour the auctions weekly.  Not even for "+" grades.

I see big boosts for Saints from 66 to 67 for some of the commons....but even a 66+CAC isn't going to come close to a 67, at least not for the ones I am looking at.

...im talking bout real collector coins not bullion coins that only has collectors at the highest grades, saints just like roosters r not really collectible coins per se, try to put together a set in fr-02 or vf-20 or even au-58...those coins r outliers n only encounter massive premiums at the 67-68-69 grades...real collectible coins, seated, early coppers, barbers, even morgans, lincoln cents demonstrate the high % price jumps if they receive a gold bean, these r in evidence virtually all the time....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/6/2022 at 2:01 AM, EagleRJO said:

I recall something about those coins. But that was a while ago and I thought it related more to a different view on toned coins combined with diff standards, plus newer ppl over-grading some of those, and not about crossovers or CAC.

Basically....some savvy Franklin collectors had nice coins in PCGS holders....they resubmitted them hoping for a higher or even "+" grade....got nothing for their efforts....sold the coins for a few hundred bucks...later on, they see their same coin in a new holder with 1-2 grades higher, sometimes with CAC, coins now worth 10-20x what they sold it for a a few years earlier or less.

Edited October 6, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:05 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Basically....some savvy Franklin collectors had nice coins in PCGS holders....they resubmitted them hoping for a higher or even "+" grade....got nothing for their efforts....sold the coins for a few hundred bucks...later on, they see their same coin in a new holder with 1-2 grades higher, sometimes with CAC, coins now worth 10-20x what they sold it for a a few years earlier or less.

Likely NOT due to gradeflation, and more likely the result of naked corruption. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/6/2022 at 2:23 PM, VKurtB said:

Likely NOT due to gradeflation, and more likely the result of naked corruption. 

Can't say definitively you are wrong....but there's no proof to that conclusion. 

And you ALWAYS say something needs to be backed up, right ?

[EagleRJO]

On 10/6/2022 at 2:05 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Basically....some savvy Franklin collectors had nice coins in PCGS holders....they resubmitted them hoping for a higher or even "+" grade....got nothing for their efforts....sold the coins for a few hundred bucks...later on, they see their same coin in a new holder with 1-2 grades higher, sometimes with CAC, coins now worth 10-20x what they sold it for a a few years earlier or less.

Yea, I'm pretty sure those were toned coins in older holders where the desirability of those along with grading standards have changed over time. In general, you can get a grade bump resubmitting an older holder (not just resubmitting in the same period hoping for a different outcome). I don't think that relates to the effect of any CAC sticker or crossovers.

[VKurtB]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:26 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Can't say definitively you are wrong....but there's no proof to that conclusion. 

And you ALWAYS say something needs to be backed up, right ?

On the other hand, there ARE at least two series that nearly always feature wild differences of opinion - Ikes and Franklins.  Suffice it to say that NOTHING that might happen “across the street” could ever shock me. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:26 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Can't say definitively you are wrong....but there's no proof to that conclusion.

That’s the thing about corruption. It pretty much DEPENDS on not leaving any proof behind. Just like there’s “no evidence” of election corruption. The entire system is DESIGNED to eliminate any evidence, by DESIGN. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:28 PM, EagleRJO said:

Yea, I'm pretty sure those were toned coins in older holders where the desirability of those along with grading standards have changed over time. In general, you can get a grade bump resubmitting an older holder (not just resubmitting in the same period hoping for a different outcome). I don't think that relates to the effect of any CAC sticker or crossovers.

If this Franklin story is about toning, no other explanation is needed. Toning has come to mean extra points. That’s pretty much indisputable. It wouldn’t surprise me if someone “gassed” the Franklins. Don’t be naïve. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/6/2022 at 2:28 PM, EagleRJO said:

Yea, I'm pretty sure those were toned coins in older holders where the desirability of those along with grading standards have changed over time. In general, you can get a grade bump resubmitting an older holder (not just resubmitting in the same period hoping for a different outcome). I don't think that relates to the effect of any CAC sticker or crossovers.

I'll check later and report back, I don't recall if they involved toned coins.  But I am sure they weren't toned for the ones who got the upgrade and not for the ones who was posting on the threads.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/6/2022 at 2:47 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'll check later and report back, I don't recall if they involved toned coins.  But I am sure they weren't toned for the ones who got the upgrade and not for the ones who was posting on the threads.

I did find the Franklin Gradeflation thread and it was about toned coins, including the follow up posts and the ones that upgraded, which is what I recalled. So those crazy numbers make sense since they were toned Franklins which people were going crazy over.

I also saw a recent thread there asking for information on crossover submissions to compile an impromptu database. It will be interesting to see the results of that analysis.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/7/2022 at 12:22 PM, EagleRJO said:

I did find the Franklin Gradeflation thread and it was about toned coins, including the follow up posts and the ones that upgraded, which is what I recalled. So those crazy numbers make sense since they were toned Franklins which people were going crazy over.

But if they EACH had toned coins and they were submitted and re-submitted within a short period of time, then upgrades shouldn't have occured.  Or these vets would have realized that toning was the key and gotten that response right away.  I have to find the thread again and go over the first few pages...but I don't recall that was the case.  Maybe you can confirm.

It wasn't like the OP said he submitted the coins a few times in the late-1990's and 20 years later he found the coins 2 grades higher.  I think we are talking about a few months or a year or so -- but I'll double-check.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/7/2022 at 4:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But if they EACH had toned coins and they were submitted and re-submitted within a short period of time, then upgrades shouldn't have occured.  Or these vets would have realized that toning was the key and gotten that response right away.  I have to find the thread again and go over the first few pages...but I don't recall that was the case.  Maybe you can confirm.

It wasn't like the OP said he submitted the coins a few times in the late-1990's and 20 years later he found the coins 2 grades higher.  I think we are talking about a few months or a year or so -- but I'll double-check.

The coins were toned Franklins where they were discussing resubmitting some themselves in the past and getting essentially the same grade. They previously sold the coins and then saw them with a higher grade and being sold for a lot more money.

Keep in mind that thread was from a while ago when toned coins were starting to be graded higher by the TPGs (previously viewed as an undesirable appearance that knocked it down in grade) and also becoming wildly popular, and not just for Franklins or nickels. Sacks Bowers has a webpage from a while ago about a rainbow toned MS-68 1880-S Morgan valued at $5,000 that sold at auction for $23,000 with no change in grade.

On 10/6/2022 at 2:38 PM, VKurtB said:

If this Franklin story is about toning, no other explanation is needed. Toning has come to mean extra points.

Exactly, and add to that the demand craze for toned coins that also developed, particularly with nicer rainbow-like colors.

But I am more curious about the impromptu analysis about crossover submissions I saw. I will have to keep an eye on that one to see if the OP completes that.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/7/2022 at 6:25 PM, EagleRJO said:

Sacks Bowers has a webpage from a while ago about a rainbow toned MS-68 1880-S Morgan valued at $5,000 that sold at auction for $23,000 with no change in grade.

Wow, that's unreal.  Wonder how the price guides will treat toned and non-toned coins. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/7/2022 at 6:25 PM, EagleRJO said:

The coins were toned Franklins where they were discussing resubmitting some themselves in the past and getting essentially the same grade. They previously sold the coins and then saw them with a higher grade and being sold for a lot more money. Keep in mind that thread was from a while ago when toned coins were starting to be graded higher by the TPGs (previously viewed as an undesirable appearance that knocked it down in grade) and also becoming wildly popular, and not just for Franklins or nickels.

I can't recall if I made it to the complete end of the thread -- it was very long -- because that would be a legitimate explanation.  It sure wasn't coming in clear through the first few pages, that I distinctly remember.

[EagleRJO]

I'm not that into toned coins, but I do have a few mostly with a slight golden like color with a rainbow hint, and one older half dollar with kind of a blue-green tone, which is more my style. Then there are the more heavily rainbow toned coins like in that thread which tend to be somewhat unique that some ppl more recently go nuts over.

It just takes 2 people who really like one and they don't know when they might see another similar one, and you can easily see the price going through the roof. Add to that higher grading than in the past for those, an older holder and a sticker and I don't even bother reading the listing. 😉

Edited October 8, 2022 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/7/2022 at 8:11 PM, EagleRJO said:

It just takes 2 people who really like one and they don't know when they might see another similar one, and you can easily see the price going through the roof. Add to that higher grading than in the past for those, an older holder and a sticker and I don't even bother reading the listing. 😉

Yes, toning is unique...no 2 alike....you can find pretty clean MS-67's or MS-68's or Proofs that are clean.  Tough to replicate "monster toning." 

[EagleRJO]

@LDH Coins & Memorabiliasorry about the toning sidetrack, but at least it didn't blow up which seems to happen sometimes with that topic. Did you decide to go with the less expensive coin with the CAC sticker and cross it?

Also, I am just curious what complete date/mark set you are working on where you were having trouble with a given date and mark.

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

Thanx for input and the additional toning posts were interesting and informative. Of my sets, most of them are a mixture of NGC and PCGS (mostly NGC), but I realized my Peace. set (all dates and all mints were a few coins short all PCGS. Last coin was the 1934 S Peace dollar (NGC AU 58 with CAC) but the bidding went too far past my range. Although someone on this forum said I have more cents than sense  but I have limitations. Thanx for asking

[EagleRJO]

Doing a complete set with all dates and marks can be tough, particularly if a few dates/marks are less common. I am running into that with a complete Morgan Dollar set I have been working on with a few of the CC marks and some in the mid 1890's being less common, combined with the price spike earlier this year.

But I am just being patient plugging away when I can get them in a decent grade for a good price, as prices come back down to reality, and I have had a little more success with Great Collections recently.

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

I agree - but sometimes I'm not as patient as I need to be. Based off HA and GC lately prices aren't coming down to reality (based on coins I'm looking  ). Also, I haven't found any decent coin shops in central North Carolina, but I have a coin club but they aren't into slabbed coins, only raw. Coin shows are available but good prices are far and few between. I guess I will learn patience with GC, HA, and ebay.