'Variety plus' of Brazilian coins, catalog ignored when mentioning in certification 0

[Soy Jo!]

Please pass this on to your superior, I've lost patience with the way you treat the ''Variety plus'' of Brazilian coins.
All coins I've sent recently, I've always mentioned the ''Maldonado'' catalog on Variety plus, understand that it's this catalog you use for the same, as you have previous quotes on your website. Now that the headache starts, I was previously replied by email, that the appropriate variants would not be placed because the classifier felt it was not worthy or because it is not in their online Variety plus file.
This is totally pathetic, as the online archive does not list the entire ''plus variety'' of Brazilian coins. Worse still, if you have the ''Maldonado'' catalog in your research collection, why aren't the coins I order properly rated? What is the catalog for? To list what you like best? Or does the catalog have to be used for what it was made for? Now if you think I should use Krause for variety plus let me know or Gomes or the catalog you prefer for Brazilian coins and your Variety plus. I am deeply bothered by this and I want a resolution to the problem.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Galo Collection

[Sandon]

    This inquiry might get more attention from the NGC staff if it were placed in the "Ask NGC/NCS" forum.

[Fenntucky Mike]

I usually email prior to submitting anything I might have a question on, they say yea or nay, or maybe, and I go from there. If it's a yea or maybe but we'll need to see it first I'll send it in, if it's a nay then I don't. As to the reasoning of how they come to those decisions I have no idea, but I will say, based on my experiences, if the variety is in Krause there is a much better chance of it being recognized/accepted by NGC. It's been a few years since I've done this so maybe it's changed. Of course you'll probably have to pay the variety plus fee regardless. I can certainly understand your frustration in regards to NGC not recognizing some well documented varieties outside of Krause.

[Soy Jo!]

The point is that they have the specific catalog for Brazil in the collection, but they only use it if the classifier is not lazy.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 9/16/2022 at 7:19 AM, Galo Collection said:

The point is that they have the specific catalog for Brazil in the collection, but they only use it if the classifier is not lazy.

Like I said, I do not know how the end decision is reached but I'm positive laziness is not a factor. As @Sandon said, post this in the Ask NGC section of the forum and see if you get a response. 

[zadok]

On 9/16/2022 at 7:19 AM, Galo Collection said:

The point is that they have the specific catalog for Brazil in the collection, but they only use it if the classifier is not lazy.

...thats probably not a good way to gain mutual respect...

[zadok]

On 9/16/2022 at 5:58 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I usually email prior to submitting anything I might have a question on, they say yea or nay, or maybe, and I go from there. If it's a yea or maybe but we'll need to see it first I'll send it in, if it's a nay then I don't. As to the reasoning of how they come to those decisions I have no idea, but I will say, based on my experiences, if the variety is in Krause there is a much better chance of it being recognized/accepted by NGC. It's been a few years since I've done this so maybe it's changed. Of course you'll probably have to pay the variety plus fee regardless. I can certainly understand your frustration in regards to NGC not recognizing some well documented varieties outside of Krause.

...operative word there is "well documented" just because something is listed in a reference book doesnt always mean its well documented or documented at all....

[Soy Jo!]

A book that has been around since the 1950, doesn't need anything more documented.

[zadok]

On 9/16/2022 at 11:56 AM, Galo Collection said:

A book that has been around since the 1950, doesn't need anything more documented.

...age of the book irrelevant, its the contents that matter....

[Soy Jo!]

"The Cherrypickers' Guide to Rare Die Varieties" Isn't this book a reference to US coins?  Is everything in it true or false?

[Soy Jo!]

the content of the book, for Brazilian coins, is the most modern, with images of the coins in high resolution and their respective variants.

[zadok]

On 9/16/2022 at 11:59 AM, Galo Collection said:

"The Cherrypickers' Guide to Rare Die Varieties" Isn't this book a reference to US coins?  Is everything in it true or false?

...nothing to do with ur request, apples n oranges, n furthermore many of the items in it r considered minor varieties n of little significance...coins from obscure areas of numismatics with older reference sources often require more documentation than just a casual reference especially if examples r not available for verification....

[zadok]

On 9/16/2022 at 12:01 PM, Galo Collection said:

the content of the book, for Brazilian coins, is the most modern, with images of the coins in high resolution and their respective variants.

...then u shouldnt have any major issue if ur request is presented properly...this forum certainly isnt the logical avenue to present ur case....

[Soy Jo!]

It is my right to express something here, which cannot be resolved via contact.  if you are bothered there is nothing i can do unless you are an NGC employee.

[zadok]

On 9/16/2022 at 12:07 PM, Galo Collection said:

It is my right to express something here, which cannot be resolved via contact.  if you are bothered there is nothing i can do unless you are an NGC employee.

...matters little to me either way...pursue as u see fit....

[Soy Jo!]

 

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2876519-005/55/

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/6323665-006/63/

 

their lack of attention is blatant, how to confuse that?

[DWLange]

I work only with USA coins, where varieties are requested frequently. I spoke with our world coins attributor, and there doesn't appear to be enough interest in world varieties to create a Brazilian database.

[Soy Jo!]

good evening Dw Lange, I wouldn't even need to create a database for the Brazilian variants of the NGC, the only thing I wanted was a consensus from the NGC whenever asked to insert a variety that is in the book, they have the book on their shelf, why not put?  I was told that even if I pay for “more variety” the classifier can put it in or not, it depends on his taste.  how can the classifier define something whether or not it is to his personal taste?  If I pay for a service, it's because I want it.

[Soy Jo!]

what I'm looking for is consensus, NGC has in its collection the “Brazilian coin book” if I pay for “plus variety” and put the coin number and variety on the invoice, just open the book and assign it.  It's great.

[Oldhoopster]

On 9/16/2022 at 5:21 PM, Galo Collection said:

what I'm looking for is consensus, NGC has in its collection the “Brazilian coin book” if I pay for “plus variety” and put the coin number and variety on the invoice, just open the book and assign it.  It's great.

Please read Mr Lange's post again.  Based on what he wrote, it appears that in order to assign it a grade, the specific variety would have to be in their database.  I believe each coin type and variety is assigned a specific identification number that are used for the labels and bar codes.  

It isn't so simple as to pull out a book and reference a variety.  If it isn't in the database, the information can't be properly stored and maintained by NGC, nor can a label and barcode be printed. 

As Mr. Lange stated, there isn't enough interest to warrant building that database for Brazilian varieties.  IMO, that's not being lazy, as you stated a few times

Edited September 16, 2022 by Oldhoopster

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/16/2022 at 12:03 PM, zadok said:

...coins from obscure areas of numismatics with older reference sources often require more documentation than just a casual reference.... 

🐓:  Is this the reason why you stopped collecting?

Q.A.:  Ricky, please! Not here, not now. The gentleman's name is Galo, not Gallic. This is his thread. Respect his space!

🐓:  Sorry. Carry on.

[VKurtB]

Our OP fails to understand the standard for recognizing varieties. It is more than being in a reference book on NGC’s shelf. Many U.S. varieties in references are also not recognized by NGC. NGC decides, not the customer, and definitely not the editor of a guide book. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/16/2022 at 11:06 PM, VKurtB said:

Our OP fails to understand the standard for recognizing varieties. It is more than being in a reference book on NGC’s shelf. Many U.S. varieties in references are also not recognized by NGC. NGC decides, not the customer, and definitely not the editor of a guide book. 

Varieties abound in the French 20-franc gold rooster series, but none are formally recognized.  "Restrikes" have been found sporting the circumferencial edging of old mottos, and vice versa, "orginals" series have been  found sporting the newer motto. Brief mention is made acknowledging their exisntence, but no overseas emporium is going to cull their stocks looking for varieties or irregularities because a collector wants one. 

[Soy Jo!]

I don't care about 20 francs varieties.

[Oldhoopster]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:05 AM, Galo Collection said:

I don't care about 20 francs varieties.

And that's how most collectors feel about Brazilian varieties. If enough collectors become interested, then the grading services will attribute them. Until then, you're out of luck

To be clear, I'm not disparaging your interest in Brazilian varieties.  The great thing about this hobby is you can collect whatever you want.  I do have an issue with some of your misguided statements regarding NGC being lazy by not attributing your varieties.  You obviously don't understand the working process and economics of the TPGs

[Soy Jo!]

It's my opinion and you have yours.  I respect yours and you don't want to respect mine, that's fine with me, but it won't be because of your opinion that I'm going to change.  Please understand that there are several derisory variants, my whole question is about unplaced variants that exceed 1000 dollars.  they prefer to put variants that in the end are nothing more than a marked error, nor do they know for sure how to differentiate mint error from variety.  And when I say that I don't care about the 20 Francs variants, it's me as a collector, but NGC, PCGS and so many other certifiers should certainly care about all the variants, because they get paid very well to do this type of service, but if you're satisfied with the service they provide, that's your problem, I'm dissatisfied and that's it.

[Soy Jo!]

NGC, PCGS and many other certifiers in general, due to the high investment they have, should be concerned with almost everything within their reach.  If you pay 18 reais for a variant that the classifier doesn't even mention because it didn't put it.  He has total autonomy to put what he wants, maybe he doesn't understand, even though he has many books on his bedside to research and if he wants to research.  today in particular, I use much more NGC than PCGS for world currencies, it is no wonder that I have certified more than 1200 Brazilian currencies in less than 1 year.  I use it for greater acceptance in the Brazilian market, because the PCGS does not have such a good acceptance.  But today I consider PCGS much more advanced in all respects.  When the market understands that PCGS is just as good, I will be happy to trade.  Again, if you're satisfied with their service, congratulations to you, I'm not, and I think they can improve.

[Soy Jo!]

What's the point of us collectors in general, each one, in their specific collection, studying the coins for years and a company later comes to say that they will put it or not?  they should update themselves as much as we do.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:05 AM, Galo Collection said:

I don't care about 20 francs varieties.

In all fairness, neither do the vast majority of collectors who collect them from dealers who utilize a standard "range" of grades, for example, FLEUR de COIN (FDC) which comprises a coin graded anywhere from MS65 thru MS70.  I bought such a coin, graded FDC, hoping it would grade MS66, stateside. My hopes were dashed when it was graded MS64+ by a TPGS. It remains my all time favorite which never appeared in a Set Resisty, and which I vowed  I would never sell.

[Henri Charriere]

What is PCGS' policy re varieties?  Do they recognize them in your series?  I would be academically curious as to how they approach the matter of world coin attributions.